this is quoting max frankel. here's what i really want to ask you about. "when branch rickey recruited jackie robinson, he had to say, 'boy, this guy had better be great. he had to be better than anybody else.'" frankel saying, "my mother used to say to me, 'max, you're a jew. you've got to be better than anybody else.' now major black ballplayers are routinely scolded, traded, kicked out, and nobody calls it racism.'" racism.'" why would somebody say -- a mother say, 'max you're a jew. you've got to be better than anybody else?' >> guest: because jews couldn't be doctors for the longest time in america, couldn't go to law school, have been used throughout history as scapegoats. they are disproportionately and admirably represented in the united states as civic leaders and as intellectual leaders. and it creates a lot of resentment as assimilated as they are. max frankel came from germany. remember that. and he realized he was a german-speaking boy when he came to new york city. and he has been struggling all of his life. it might account for his ponderousn

just a minute, because the gentleman had quite a bit of long time to speak, is to point out that max frankelnd a very famous affidavit in the pentagon papers case wrote eloquently about how the public does in a fit from this discourse -- does benefit from this discourse. i have seen both in the job as washington bureau chief of "the times" certainly growing as managing editor and now executive editor, that these criminal leak investigations have had a very profound effect on journalism. >> that was jill abramson speaking in january she was still executive editor at "the new york times." abramson reportedly had made a job offer to gibson to be a comanaging editor position at "the new york times" with dean baquet, but janine gibson turned that down. of the battlece in the context of what you've gone through, lynn povich, yours is a fascinating history. what happened at newsweek in the struggle you see with women, briefly, encapsulate that. >> we were not even allowed to be promoted out of the category. so we did have to file a legal complaint with the equal and some opportunity -- >> there wer