people eager to get in to buy the first-time home or people that want to trade off and now they mayfieldr their own home. what do you say? >> there is no doubt about the fact we're seeing a cyclical turn. as jim grant wrote, science is progressive and finance is cyclical. real estate finance is very cyclical. and we're now on the upswing and, in that up swing, you get optimism like your last guests were talking about. and along with that the lending markets start to get a little easier although they're very tight overall. gerri: i keep keep hearing from from people. i hear a lot of complaints how lenders won't lend. let me get evidence what we're talking about here. zillow is reporting non-fha mortgage loans, this is bank loans, not government loans, loans with down payments of 5% to 10% are double what they were two years ago. they're growing. so i think a lot of people would see that as good news, cyclical or not. we haven't seen good news in this market let's face it for seven to eight years. the down payment that would be needed at this point, this makes such a big difference to peop