and it speaks for itself. >> okay, mary mccord, let me go to you on this.ecause this is trump's other defense. he has been using this a lot, and i think to people who don't know the law and aren't familiar with it, to them it probably sounds credible. here is president trump giving the presidential records act. >> i had every right to have these documents. the crucial legal precedent is laid out in the most important case ever on this subject known as the clinton socks case. in other words, whatever documents a president decides to take with him, he has the right to do so. it's an absolute right. this is the law. >> mary, please fact check that. >> well, it's not the law. it's not whatever documents the president decides to take with him when he leaves the oval office are his documents. the presidential records act explicitly made clear in law that presidential records, records of official business that are not just purely personal records are not the president's property. they're not the former president's property. they are the public's property. they are

joining us now is mary mccord. she's now the executive director of the institute for constitutional advocacy and a professor at the georgetown university law center. she's also the co-host of the msnbc podcast, prosecuting donald trump. ms. mccord, thank you for joining us. we appreciate it. >> of course. >> tell me what you make of this. the justice department seems to have provided a whole lot of information to the trump defense team, in fact more than they would otherwise be obliged to provide and more than the trump team had asked for. what does this signal to you? >> well, i think this is consistent with everything we've seen jack smith and his team do since they brought this case in the southern district of florida. they knew they were going to be on a tight clock if there was any chance of getting this case to trial before election and really before it even heats up to get to its most significant parts next summer, and that means they had to be ready to provide mr. trump and his lawyers all of the discovery

navy captain -- scott chip mccord, he's also a senior lecturer at m.i.t., so, captain mccord, first of all, the canadian coast guard they said now that they have picked up the sounds, they are coming at intervals, that are very heartening to those who are searching, for them how would you use that observation to then locate the submersible? >> well, i think the may have overstated the significance of those zones that were very hopeful would be some men on the inside of the submersible, but i believe they also have said they really don't understand what those sounds are. there's a lot of noise in the ocean, a ship could be making the titanic could be making noise, you would think of someone was on the inside of the, haul they might be sending a suicide no, and due to very constant frequency every 30 minutes every 40 minutes, every hour, and so i don't think they have got that type of information. >> so if they do find the submersible, what in your mind is the next step to recover it? >> let me just say that it is really deep, and so it is really hard to get to. there is only very few su

if for more on this, let's bring in mary mccord, former acting assistant, attorney generally -- at the department of justice. she's also an msnbc legal analyst and -- assistant director for counter intelligence with the fbi, an msnbc national security analyst, and the author of the fbi way, inside the bureau's code of excellence. good morning to both so you, thank you for being with us. frank, let me start with you, throughout his presidency, donald trump offered often travel to mar-a-lago and to his other properties like bedminster. it's well-known spot for him to spend time in and do work. now that we have more details from the indictment about how and where classified documents were handled and stored at mar-a-lago, what's your assessment regarding the actual national security risk or threat posed, not just by having the boxes there, because that part we can see on the camera, but the passage that i just read that indicates that donald trump knew they were there, knew he wasn't supposed to have them, and was clearly talking to people about them. >> you know, ali, as someone who spen

mary mccord, deborah pearlstone, thank you both. still ahead, the world may be watching the special counsel case against donald trump in florida, but recent hints by a grand jury say that there may still be more to come. next. still be more to come. next. still be more to come. next. still be more to come. next. -- -- of his modus operandi, i think. it's interesting because we have talked before about what his motive was here and, was with these classified documents in mar-a-lago, why did they carry them with them everywhere? it was monetizing deede's, and using them as leverage in his own business relationships, or potentially with foreign governments. it is quite possible that it was purely his weird attachment of an employee, alleged in this indictment, calling it the beautiful mind boxes that he had this weird attachment to things. it was a significant motive, and the significant motive as well. there is a lot as well that really seems like he felt like this was his, and he didn't want to give them up. >> he's on truth social wi

mary mccord, former assistant attorney general for national security at the doj, mary, it's always goode you. thanks so much for your time. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. o much fe >> thank you >> we'll be right back wake up, achievers. you're making the most of every hour of your life. except the hours that you're sleeping. so why do we leave so much untapped potential on the table? this is a next level bed, for a next level you. my circadian rhythm is kicking your circadian rhythm's butt! it's not a competition. i know, but i'm still winning! so, it is a competition. save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add an adjustable base. only at sleep number. >>> that is our show for tonight. we'll see you again tomorrow. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. >>> we deserve is deal that generally reflects the urgency of our economic challenges and delivers meaningful results. to grant such a colossal debt ceiling increase while settling for a mere $12 billion in immediate savings is also an act of fiscal irresponsibili

glenn thrush and mary mccord thanks for starting us off. us. >>> up next, the president's son, hunter biden, reached a plea deal with the justice department today. we'll tell you about it next. like honey sriracha... d s ...this is not your grandpa's crabfest... ...unless grandpa's got flavor. dayumm! crabfest is here for a limited time. welcome to fun dining. ♪ this is not just a pharmacy. ♪ this is living the care in healthcare. ♪ walgreens. (bridget) with thyroid eye disease i hid from the camera. ♪ and i wanted to hide from the world. for years, i thought my t.e.d. was beyond help... but then i asked my doctor about tepezza. (vo) tepezza is the only medicine that treats t.e.d. at the source not just the symptoms. in a clinical study more than 8 out of 10 patients taking tepezza had less eye bulging. tepezza is an infusion. patients taking tepezza may have infusion reactions. tell your doctor right away if you experience high blood pressure, fast heartbeat, shortness of breath or muscle pain. before getting tepezza, tell your doctor if y

we will see, mary mccord, michael moore, thank you both for your time and expertise this evening. i appreciate it. >> have a good night. >> we have a lot more to get to this evening as the state of texas suffers from a lethal heat wave. some recent news by republicans, they are not doing anything to cool things down. but in russia another plot twist in the attempted mutiny by mercenary fighters. we will have more on that coming up next. ♪ rsv is a contagious virus that usually causes mild symptoms but can cause more severe infections that may lead to hospitalizations... ...in adults 60 and older... ...and adults with certain underlying conditions, like copd, asthma, or congestive heart failure. talk to your doctor and visit cutshortrsv.com. ♪ i wanna hold you forever ♪ hey little bear bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ i'm gonna love you forever ♪ to have and to hold from this day forward. ♪ you don't... ♪ c'mon, bear. ♪ you don't have to worry... ♪ ♪ be by your side.. ♪ ♪ i'll be there.. ♪ ♪ with my arms wrapped around... ♪ if you remember, last weekend, as you can see, prigozhin, the chief of the russ

mccord thank you for joining us, we appreciate it. >> of course. >> tell me what you make of this. the justice department seems to provide a whole lot of information to the trump defense team in fact more than they would otherwise be obliged to provide, and many more than the trump team had asked for. what is this signaling to you? >> i think it's consistent with everything we have seen jack smith and his team to, since they brought this case in the southern district of florida. they knew they would be on a tight clock if there was any chance of getting this case to trial before the election. and really before it even heats up to get to its most significant parts next summer. that means they had to be providing mr. trump and his lawyers with all of the discarded freeze the to which he is entitled. they also lean forward, saying that we would give it even more than i required to give. they clearly had this all packaged up and ready to go, probably even before he was indicted. they were waiting to get the protective order in place, the one that you referenced, which prohibits mr. tru

we will see mary mccord, former assistant attorney for national security at the doj, mary, it's alwaysd to see you. thanks so much for your time. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. >> we'll be right back with a majority of my patience with sensitivity, i see irritated gums and weak enamel. sensodyne sensitivity gum & enamel relieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. if we want a more viable future for our kids, we need to find more sustainable ways of doing things. america's plastic makers are investing billions of dollars in new technologies and creating plastic products that are more recyclable. durable. and dependable. our goal is a cleaner, healthier planet for generations to come. for a better tomorrow, we're focused on making plastics better today. every day, more dog people, and more vets are deciding it's time for a fresh approach to pet food. they're quitting the kibble. and kicking the cans. and feeding their dogs dog food that's actually... well, food. developed with vets. made from rea

mary mccord, deborah pearlstone, thank you both.till ahead, the world may be watching the special counsel case against donald trump in florida, but recent hints by a grand jury say that there may still be more to come. next. e. next try head & shoulders shampoo. dandruff is caused by irritation to a germ that lives on everyone's scalp. unlike regular shampoo, head & shoulders contains zinc pyrithione, which fights the dandruff-causing germ and helps prevent it from coming back. it's gentle on hair and provides up to 100% dandruff protection, clinically proven. try head & shoulders shampoo and conditioner. for best results, use with every wash. this has been medifacts for head & shoulders. ♪ ♪ discover the power of the gelflex grid. sleep better. live purple. i will be a travel influencer... hey, i thought you were on vacation? it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? i got you. looking great you guys! ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ how's the chicken? the prawns are delicious. o

joining us now is mary mccord, former assistant attorney general for national security at the departmentexecutive director of georgetown law's institute for constitutional advocacy and protection. mary, thank you for being with us tonight. what, in your mind, does this tape, and the existence of it, due to trump's defense? >> well, i think it makes clear that he is on, you know, a recording. you know the power in front of juries of actually listening to a defendant's own words on of people courting, it sounds like he pretty much acknowledged having classified information, which, another, times he and his lawyers have suggested that he had no knowledge that, classified information was taken from the white house. it also shows that he is aware he can't share classified information. he pointedly seems to say, courting to the recording, that, you know, i have this information about general milley's plans to attack iran and i sure wish i could show it to you, but i can't do that, because it is classified. now, i will note that i think there is a decent possibility that the former president wa

mary mccord is the acting assistant for the justice department for the obama administration and anthony coley is the -- we are really looking ahead to this week even with the last few days have been a bit of a whirlwind. what are you looking out for this week mary on tuesday? what do you expect to see in the courtroom? >> so when is the official time for the court to advise the defendant of the charges against him. of course he's had the opportunity to see the indictment which was unsealed on friday. the court asks the defendant to enter a plea. and the defendant can say guilty or the defendant can say not guilty. i don't think i'm going out on a limb to say that this particular defendant will say not guilty. the judge will then make any kind of rulings which, with respect to conditions of him remaining at liberty pending a trial. some people are held and detained when there is a risk of flight or risk to public safety. or do expect that trump will be detained but there may be some restrictions on his traveling, he may be even required to tell the court when he is going to travel, parti

. >> reporter: mccord says the mission neighborhood where his shop has been for 30 years also has issued with unhoused people, drugs, and crime but credits city hall with recent efforts to deal with those issues. he says he's seen improvements. he says they'll miss the mission and open improvements in the entire city will continue. >>> more bay area stores are locking up, even some of the most basic products are locked up as a way to come bat a spike in organized retail theft. vacuums, cleaning products at home depot, hard drives and headphones at office depot, and shaving cream and deper tent at target. the extra level of security is meant to deter thieves in high-traffic areas. customers are also feeling the impacts. >> the flip side of it is empty shelves when you're looking for a product and it's not there. it's one thing to have it there behind a closed cabinet that you have to get someone to ununlock. if it's not there it's equally frustrating. >> according to the national retail federation, organized theft costs the retail industry over $96 billion in 2021. recent surveys show san

now we have the ever, how mccord's great achievements and great relationship with the state of israel as there was, there has to be some sort of security agreements. but i don't think it's, this is the, the thing that's, that you, we heavies on with the turkey video, you wants directly to, to be a prominent leader in the region and wants to help turkey and it's economy and wants to help direct you to be a part of, of this driving uh, the middle east. this is the real thing that is happening right now, but i don't think it's really related to security or, or anything else in the regard. fair enough movie al sadi if i try to offer you some tough questions, but you came back so i'm for you so much for joining us here today. i'm out of your budgets, all the people as well as an ex, but thank you so much. thank you. so much leslie, i'll say it was nice and decorative sold, it was found to confess it in the mother of 3 f government, whilst on deployment, the routing came as ben robot smith lost a defamation case against a number of newspapers. the verdict says light on a war, crimes committ

and mary mccord is back, former top official in the national security division. mike, there have been reports about his boxes. there have been interviews about his obsession, but i'd never heard this description which sort of ties his affinity for conspiracy theories as an orator, if you will, with the kinds of things he like tuesday have with him all the time. take me through what you and your colleagues are reporting. >> yeah, the beautiful mind was a new way into this story, to give a larger sense of the history of the boxes and sort of how we got to where we are in this story. one of the sort of remarkable things about it is that this is a president who is obsessed with having these documents, holding onto these documents. and he was never a reader. i talked to someone in reporting for this story who said that he had never seen trump read more than half a page. nevertheless, he was carting these materials around as a way, maybe as a security blanket, maybe as a way to make arguments about things. it's not entirely clear. we know these documents had some perso

mary mccord, thank you for starting us off this hour.. >>> when we come back, how president biden is calling what was once an insult against his economic plan as an advantage to be used against republicans in his bid for a second term. what president biden said about bidenomics and where he can convince americans it's working for him. >>> plus, the supreme court's decision to reject a theory that could have been used to overturn presidential elections. it takes away one tool from the toolbox. it's bad news for allies like the disgraced ex-president, including ted cruz. and who is running against ted cruz for the united states senate will be our guest later in the forecast. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. we used to struggle with greasy messes. now, we just freak, wipe, and we're done! with mr. clean clean freak, conquering messes is that easy. clean freak's mist is three times more powerful, and it works on contact. clean freak, just freak, wipe, done. ♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientist

captain mccord, the coast guard said they have picked up the sounds. they are coming at intervals that are very heartening to those who are searching for them. how would you use that observation to locate the submersible? >> i think they may have overstated the significance of those sounds. we are very hopeful that would be something from someone banging on the inside of a submersible. i believe they also have said they don't understand what those sounds are. there is a lot of noise in the ocean. the ship could be making it, the titanic could be making it. you would think if someone was on the inside, they might be sending sos signals. it is a very constant frequency every 30 minutes, every 40 minutes, every hour. i don't think they've got that type of information from it. >> if they do find the submersible, what in your mind is the next step to recover it? >> let me just say, it's really deep. it is really hard to get to. very few submersibles on machines. very few, if they can get down, it can actually work. the first thing they need to do is find th

joining us now is mary mccord, former acting assistant attorney general and now executive directord for constitutional advocacy and protection and a professor at the georgetown university law center. she's also, of course, a cohost of the great msnbc podcast "prosecuting donald trump." also with us tonight michael moore, former u.s. attorney for the middle district of georgia and current partner at the law firm moore hall in atlanta. my first question, mary, is who approached who here? giuliani or the special counsel? >> well, i didn't see that in the reporting and so i'm not sure, and it could go either way. when we were getting close to an indictment or sometimes even early on in stages of an investigation we would reach out to people who had information we thought could be very helpful and offer them that opportunity to come in accordance with a proffer agreement, sometimes called a queen for a day agreement because that agreement says you come and tell us things and you're essentially queen for a day. we can't use anything you tell us against you if you were ultimately to be prosecu

msnbc legal analyst, andrew weissmann, and mary mccord, dig into what we know about the indictment and wanted more notice before told you to do that, right? after a quick break, we will be back with -- george conway to get his take on the indictment. we'll be right back. scranton, scan the screen. come on, scan it. sensodyne sensitivity gum & enamel relieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. your bug spray should take out bugs, not keep out people. unlike other sprays that stick around, zevo goes from kill to clean in just seconds, plus it's safe for use around people and pets. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. my most important kitchen tool? my brain. so i choose neuriva plus. unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger. the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam who make...? ...everyday products... ...designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder - that orders fresh beans for you. o

mccord looking at russia. check. it's a coup plot hiding in plain stigt r sight. it's something he still believes in. his attacks on mike pence and others are for not carrying out the coup he saw as justified. what do you think about the ongoing nature of his criminal intent? >> for those people who think he's learned their lesson, there's no way on god's green earth that that's the case. again, not to doom and gloom, but if he is eelected, this is very different country. the only reason he's criticizing biden for weaponizing the department of justice is not because he thinks there should be more independents, it's because he wants to have the department of justice at his beck and call. that is a goner, you know, if he is re-elected. i think that it is really worth remembering that it is but for the actions of a very few people that we're not in a much worse situation, people like mark milley and secretary of defense esper, done mcgahn, i mean, very few people i think played very instrumental roles in not being in a

mary mccord, miles teller, and tim miller.s and starting us off this hour. basil sticks around for the hour. when we come back, the arizona republican election official who has had enough of kari lake's lies about him, about the election, and the threats that he continues to face to this day because of those lies. that story's next. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support

former doj assistant attorney general marin mccord explained it all earlier this evening. >> the presidential records act is completely the x opposite of that. it says all the documents and information that constitutes official business of the president, that is regardless of where it is ceremonial roles or official execution of executive branch functions rolls, you know everything except for your own private campaign and personal family photos, frankly, is pretty much presidential record which belongs to the u.s. government, not to the former president. and that is why it had to be returned to the archives before anyone even recognized that there is classified information in those documents. >> and remember, the classified documents case is just one of four potential trials that donald trump will face in a six month period next year. right in this thick of the presidential campaign. it is a heavy lift, even with a dozen attorneys to coordinate his defense, not including the four who have either resigned or recused themselves already. we are also following another important story tonight abou

msnbc legal analyst, andrew weissmann, and mary mccord, dig into what we know about the indictment andet his take on the indictment. we'll be right back. scranton, scan the screen. come on, scan it. come on, scan it visionworks. see the difference. ♪ this is not just delivery. ♪ this is knowing even superheroes... can use a sidekick. ♪ walgreens. ♪ this is not just a pharmacy. ♪ this is living the care in healthcare. ♪ walgreens. if you have heart disease and are on a statin, lowering cholesterol can be hard. and diets and exercise add to the struggle. it can feel never-ending. but today, it's possible to go from struggle to cholesterol success with leqvio. taken with a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad cholesterol by over 50%. so, if you feel like you're getting nowhere... ...go with 2 doses a year of leqvio and keep bad cholesterol low. common side effects were injection site reaction, joint pain, urinary tract infection, diarrhea, chest cold, pain in legs or arms, and shortness of breath. when you're ready to go from struggle to cholesterol success, talk to your doctor about twi

but now he's conceded in other public forums that he is certainly in legal hot water. >> mary mccord,lly obsessed with georgia, rudy giuliani is actually being sued for defamation in a case that's making its way through the federal courts for peddling a conspiracy theory for which there was never any evidence and likening them to drug dealers based on congresswoman lofgren's investigative work, sharing a ginger mint, that's what they were passing, not a zip drive. how do you evaluate the criminal exposure in georgia by fani willis for those individuals? >> well, with the caveat that i'm not an expert on georgia criminal law, there are so many facets of this. if we take what you indicated in terms of different players in this conspiracy, we've got pressure on brad reffens berger to find the 11,870 votes. we've got pressure on the state legislature to essentially overrule the will of the voters in georgia and send up a different slate of electors. pressure on the electors themselves, the trump laenlgt aelectors, to go ahead and meet fraudulently, to cast their electoral votes and send t

msnbc legal analyst, andrew weissmann, and mary mccord, dig into what we know about the indictment ander a quick break, we will be back with -- george conway to get his take on the indictment. we'll be right back. scranton, scan the screen. come on, scan it. with a majority of my patience with sensitivity, i see irritated gums and weak enamel. sensodyne sensitivity gum & enamel relieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. i'm your overly competitive brother. check. psych! and i'm about to steal this game from you just like i stole kelly carter in high school. you got no game dude, that's a foul! and now you're ready to settle the score. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie. real mature. moving forward with node- positive breast cancer is overwhelming. but i never just found my way; i made it. and did all i could to preve

mary mccord, another former career prosecutor was struck by. it just stands out.ually kind of inferential. somebody has all the documents at their home, and then we know that they had access to it. you would ask a jury to and for that they must have known, they must have taken it, they must have knowingly possessed it. occasionally you might have a case where you put a witness on, like michael collin, who has admitted to cross. and his case, including perjury. so there is baggage, this means the feds can attack that person, legitimately attacked them for their prior bad acts. here, there's none of that. as you pointed out, the witnesses are employee one, ploy to, underlines with no baggage that we know. of attorney one, attorney to, attorney three. his own attorneys. they have contemporary us notes, text messages. as you mentioned, tape accordions. >> there are tapes. >> this is commonly known, in my world, it's a rock pressure. you just rarely see this amount of proof laid out in an indictment. just remember the indictment itself is a summary that presumably the

joining me now, nbc's vaughn hillyard in iowa, nbc senior legal correspondent laura jarrett and mary mccord, former acting security general at the department of justice. laura, you broke the story earlier today. you are breaking news that the mike pence documents case is closed. apparently, he handled the documents differently than former president trump, from everything we know. >> that is true. it stands in stark contrast, those two situations. the department is not commenting on why exactly the investigation has ended. i have confirmed that doj's national security division sent the former vice president's lawyer a letter, a brief letter just yesterday, informing them that the investigation had been completed and that it would be ended without any charges being sought. the political and legal ramifications of this are noteworthy for pence, who is expected to announce his candidacy for president officially, even though we had known he was going to. he is officially supposed to announce next week. to have this cloud that had been over him for months, is obviously something that his camp is

efforts and what hopefully at some point would be rescue efforts is retired navy captain chip hk c mccord. good to have you on. i wonder if you can help us understand the significance as we know it of the noises heard so far. if you listened to the press conference, they say in so many words they truly don't know what the noises are. they have hope. they had been described by some as banging although the coast guard captain wasn't certain that is what it was, wasn't certain also the time frame as described, was it every 30 minutes or some other indeterminate time frame. do you believe that they have a reliable potential contact with the missing submarine? >> jim, i think that i would agree with the coast guard captain who said sthey don't knw exactly what they have. they are all out there looking at it and we could put conjecture into it, but if they knew for sure that it was someone banging on a hull with an s.o.s., they would have told us. so i think right now the answer is for us out here, they really don't know what they have. >> and that is important for expectations management. but

joining us now is mary mccord, former acting assistant tierney general for special security and now executive director of the institute for constitutional advocacy and production. and a professor at the georgetown university law center. she is also of course the co-host of the great msnbc podcast prosecuting donald trump. also with us tonight is michael moore, former u.s. attorney for the middle shift of georgia. and a current partner at the law firm warhol in atlanta. very, michael thank you for joining me. my first question, mary, is who pushed to hear? giuliani or the special counsel. >> well i didn't see that in the reporting. and so i am not sure and it could go either way. sometimes in investigations that i took part of when i was at the u.s. attorney's office and also even at the national security division, when we were getting close to an indictment or sometimes even earlier on in those stages of an investigation. we would reach out to people who had information that we thought could be very helpful. and often that opportunity to come in in accordance with a proper agreement. sometime

and i have reverence for people like mary mccord and brandon van grack and anthony coley, we speak withhe code that jack smith lives, by doj code. i also know that the asymmetry in which we live means that judge aileen cannon may very well be watching fox news. she may already exist in an echo chamber where she is not the only one intimidated by donald trump. i mean, walt nauta is not the only one. she may also be living in this -- again, we don't know. it may go just fine. she may rule 100% in the department of justice's favor. it's possible. >> confirmed by the senate -- she -- former prosecutor. >> it is entirely possible. -- as you said, we wouldn't be having this conversation -- but we don't live on earth one. and we know that she does not either, because of the way she ruled in the fall. >> she has issued the wildest opinions we have ever seen in criminal process by a federal district court judge, in the country. not just a trump judge, but ever. there was not a single legal expert who thought you could possibly rule in the way she ruled and she wrote that way. she was reversed by

mary mccord is also along with us. she's a former top official in the justice department's national security division. mary, it's an important sort of small understated point in the article, but it drives home the fact that if trump should read it, he might see that the advice he got from lawyers kept him from being charged on the documents that he followed their advice about, the things that he gave back. that's not what doj came for. they didn't come for things that were mishandled which a potential crime, initially not given back to nara which could have been a potential crime. this isn't accurate from a legal standpoint but they seemed to have taken all's well that ends well and the things he's charged for are things we still don't know for sure are back in the possession of the federal government. what do you make of "the times" and "the post" pretty amazing story that's happening over and over again. trump's lawyer roulette happens every time trump's under scrutiny, and here we go again. >> yes, and i think the a

former attorney general mary mccord is here and former obama national security adviser ben rhodes joinsdt. you quote on a direct quote from the insurrection from donald trump on january 6th. >> there is this expression in daily newspaper ink called one, two trend. when we were looking at this rhetoric over the weekend, we -- certainly myself i was surprised by how far trump's allies were going. and i know that they have used this rhetoric before, i know that it was used in the lead-up to january 6th, i know that this is part of trumpism, but still i looked at this and along with my colleagues and we said we need to write a story about this and tie this all together because it does have some of the beat that we've seen play out before, before these major events. there also have been events where nothing has happened, like in manhattan when he was arraigned. but it was just sort of, you know, especially the kari lake audio where she talks about how to get to trump, they're going to have to go through her and all of trump's supporters -- >> millions. >> millions of supporters who are membe