ambassador mcfall, let me start with you.ear your perspective on everything we've seen develop over the last 90 minutes. the sanctions and what we heard from president biden and the developments on the ground in ukraine. >> everything, hallie. you're going to give me 60 minutes to talk. >> i'll give you a couple, if that's okay with courtney and general zach here. >> all joking aside, this is one of the most tragic days in my life personally. i know a lot of people in ukraine are scared to death today. this is the largest war we had in europe for 70 years. and it's not over yet. we're just in the beginning stages of it. i appreciate the biden response all the way up to this point. i think they've played very weak cards well, including what was announced today but i also think we need to be realistic. they're weak cards because of the asymmetry of what we're preaired to do and what putin is prepared to do in this war. >> do you believe, you talked about playing what you call weak cards. should president biden and the administr

vice-president president biden, you see mcfall, ambassador on the right side, vladimir putin on the left. ambassador, what does it mean when this current president who you worked for makes a statement like we just heard within the last hour? >> it's a very sombre, scary moment, ari. i also worked at the white house three years under president obama and i can tell you, you don't put the president of the united states onpu national television to say what president biden just did without believing the intelligence and it was extraordinary that he even said that we have the intelligence. that in and of itself was extraordinary, and the third thing, he already said it but i really want to underscore it, he went out of his way today in his addresshi to say they believe kyiv, the capital of ukraine will be one of the targets of this military invasion. now, we don't know if he meant an aerial campaign or soldiers marching to o kyiv but that, to me, was especially sobering to hear the city of nearly 3 million people is one of the targets they believe putin has his sights on. >> how is that d

. >>> joining me, mike memoli, richard engel from ukraine, and mike mcfall. richard, let's go right to you, and walk us through what you're seeing now. >> reporter: definitely seeing an early shelling today. while we were there, the separatists started firing. before you play the clip, it's important to understand the context here. russia says the reason it has recognized these separatist areas, the reason it is potential going to in1r5ids this -- invade this country, is because ukraine is attacking the pro-russian population. that's not what we saw. we saul all of it coming from one direction, the ukrainians not firing back. >> sometimes rounds are closer than others. coming right over this front line position. this village has been hit heart over the last four, five days. about half the people have moved out already. >> so it came from this direct? [ speaking foreign language ] >> so that is whats it is like. you can be calm, no outgoing fire, and then all of a sudden boom, boom, boom from the separatist area. i think there might have been 20, 30 rounds tha

and joining me is michael mcfall, former u.s.ne. let's make it clear for everyone. even as the u.s. anticipates a larger action, how would you define it? >> as you know, i teach at stanford university, i teach on international relations. if country x sends soldiers and tanks into country y without invitation, what do you call that? that's my final exam question to everybody. that's an invasion. yes, the circumstances about who controlled what territory at the time makes it complicated here. but until yesterday, russia, putin was allegedly trying to have an agreement about the future sovereignty of these two republics, regions of ukraine. yesterday he decided he wasn't interested anymore and invaded ukraine. it's just that simple. >> so, why do you think the white house was beingo ambivalent about it? >> well, a couple of two things he number one, the initial declaration that putin signed, the decrees with the two puppets that came to the kremlin to sign them from these two peoples republics, by the way. i want to underscore that

former ambassador, michael mcfall, welcome to the show. what are your thoughts, are the sanctions enough? >> i applaud the biden imagination for what they have done. these are serious sanctions, especially the ones yesterday and now that president putin have been added on individual sanctions, that is a dramatic step. i would like to see more, my sense is the and menstruation %-ú respond to further steps in this war. i think shock and awe would've been a better strategy but i understand the logic. whether they work or not is important to understand the sanctions don't work in the immediate, i think they take months if not years to have an effect. >> do you agree with that approach that america is not going to put boots on the ground there? >> i do, i support president biden's decision on that. we do not want to have a conventional war with russia. i don't think the american people want that. that makes it all the more incumbent on the biden demonstration to increase an increase now, military assistance to those brave ukrainians fighting to

mike mcfall, the former ambassador to russia, speaking on msnbc. >> i want everybody to understand howrible this is. this is a democratic and free country in the heart of europe. they did nothing to deserve this. they have not provoked vladimir putin. this is not about the stupid nato expansion debate that we've been having in this country for weeks now, as if this precipitated it. this is an unprovoked war that remains me of september 1st, 1939, when hitler invaded poland. >> reporter: the chairman of the house intelligence committee explaining what the u.s. will do. >> what we can do is make this very costly for the russians so they don't stay. and they don't stay indefinitely. and that means supplying ukraine with weapons to defend itself. >> reporter: meanwhile, late tonight we're getting word that ukraine officials saying their forces shot down five russian planes and a helicopter. that's the very latest from the newsroom. i'll send it back to you. >> okay. thank you very much. of course, we'll continue to update this. >> reporter: tonight thousands of people are trying to get out

. >>> joining us now, michael mcfall, former u.s. ambassador to russia. thank you for being with us. i think what richard was talking about is remarkable in terms that vladamir putin has basically today in his speech attempted to delegitimize the history of ukraine as a country, culture and people. he basically is saying they are not really a country. they are ours and we are taking it back. >> that's right. that's what he said. he said it boldly and angrily. not the first time he's said it. he's said it many times. published a 6,000-word essay a few months ago. getting the people to correct in his view the views that were wrong that ukraine and russia were divided with the fall of the soviet union. >> many were expecting an invasion of troops. this was a little bit different. >> those people are wrong if they don't call it an invasion. when a country sends soldiers and tanks into country wide uninvited. what do you call it. russia invaded ukraine today. putin made the orders to invade ukraine again. this happened in 2014. this happened here. it doesn't m

some folks like michael mcfall have been eager to hear him do this.ch only new thing i heard in those remarks. a lot of it was assembling things we heard before, but it jumped out at me because i had not heard that note from him telling the american people to brace themselves for what may be to come. but part of what that tells me is how seriously the administration takes this. you know, there's a lot of games manship going on. you quoted a great piece that max fisher at "the new york times" wrote about how there's a lot of signaling and messages on both sides trying to warn each other not to cross the line here, but i think the fact that he's willing to say that suggests that president biden thinks this is very real. it's also a reminder that although we have a lot of economic power to try to punish russia for any kind of military or destabilizing action they might take in ukraine, we don't know exactly what the reverberations of that could be in the global economy. they're likely to hit europe harder than us, but it's quite possible the global finan

. >> yesterday in this hour, i had a conversation with michael mcfall and others about the reportingreferenced it. about the notion of enemies list and that those things are being as part of this information campaign that the biden administration is waging, the kind of things that are coming out now. so the concern if there's a full scale invasion, there are ukrainians who have their names on lists who will be taken to camps. those are words that are unnerving for a lot of people. the question i raised yesterday with mcfall and others, if a full scale invasion happens and those kind of things start to unfold, are sanctions really going to be the farthest that the administration's willing to do or are those kinds of responses going to start to look pretty tepid if things start to get really ugly in ukraine? >> if the sanctions are cranked up, they're not going to look tepid. if there's an all out russian assault, an effort to cut russia off from the global economy, global financial system, that will look pretty strong, but it won't do the job entirely. the idea of this policy is that

let's bring in michael mcfall, former u.s. ambassador to russia he's met and negotiated face-to-face with putin. ambassador, he tweeted this today. after hitler annexieses and wars we created the security council to create laws and norms against annexation, against great powers taking territory from smaller powers putin just did that. the world has to respond now, right now. so how should the world respond? >> well, number one, i think it's right that the ukranian governments ask for a meeting of the u.n. security council. that won't resolve anything because russia has a veto there but i think it needs to have a large debate so that people understand that this is an invasion there's some confusion about that people are saying it's not an invasion and it's using different words. it needs to be called for what it is. number two, i do think the biden administration and our allies need to be more comprehensive in response to the economic sanctions, and invasions and invasions are called that and a response and it's going to be a b

. >> michael mcfall was talking about a similar type of idea on those treaties admiral, it's been great to have you. thank you for your thoughts today. >> thank you see you next time. >> the former supreme allied commander at nato. >>> 20-year bonds are up for auction top of the hour. rick santelli has the results. >> this was the 22nd auction of 20-year bonds. it was 19 billion of them and the yield was 2 .396 the grade was a b minus. and everything about it was just slightly above average that yield 2.396, exactly where the one issued market was. it didn't gain or lose on the grading scale for pricing. that's always a big component. we did see the bid to cover indirect bids and dealers take down all better than ten auction average. but there was one thing that made it a b for the b minus. that was direct bidders. unlike indirect bidders with the foreign interest that you and i are always so interested in, direct bidders are like mutual funds. primary dealers that go right in, and that was at 21%. the highest ever out of any of the 22, 20-year auctions this is the last and only auction

kori schake, cyber expert clint watts at the research poly institute, and michael mcfall.e start with you. first of all, we're sending all this military aid, we're sending all this equipment to a country in the middle of a war. just logistically, is it realistic we'll be able to get all these arms to the ukranians? >> sure. the ukranians are already in charge of their borders. several nato countries are already convoying military equipment to the ukranians. >> the next step here for us in the next week or two, should we expect more troops to be sent to nato countries, in eastern europe? >> we're sending a lot of troops to nato countries. this is a good thing, reminding the russians that we're prepared to defend ourselves and defend our allies is a stabilizing message right now. >> clint, we brought you here, i think there is a lot of us that are surprised we haven't seen a cyberattack against the united states, against the west. what are you seeing in your research? >> it's an onion, right? if you look at the core, nato has been under cyberattacks for years. you might see

. >> mike mcfall, thank you for being with us for two hours today, and we also, of course, saw you thisning. can you bring it all together for us? how do we appeal to what seems to be an illogical leader like vladimir putin, isolated and illogical? >> i say two quick things. first, i completely agree with david about the messaging. i worked with the vice president, now the president, for three years -- five years actually, three years at the white house. that's when he's at his best. i would remind you that ukrainians, polish americans, lithuanian player cans, they live in those places that the president knows well, places like pennsylvania, ohio, wisconsin. he can connect to them. he knows those people. the second thing i would just say, it is a very dark, dire moment in history because putin has unleashed a heinous war with no justification. now he's threatening to use nuclear weapons. we need to -- the president needs to explain why we're engaged here and also the things that he's trying to do to make sure we stay safe including i think reaching out through quiet channels to reach pu

and joining us now, michael mcfall, former u.s. ambassador during the obama administration. start with vladimir putin. his actions have clearly united the nato alliance, put a stronger military presence in eastern europe. two things he didn't want. today we're offering to sell $6 billion in tanks to poland, right on his border. >> that's right. and i think the unity innato is very striking. i wouldn't have thought that a couple of weeks ago. i give credit to the biden administration. he's not seeking respect from the west and a face-saving solution. i hear those phrases in reference to him. i don't think that's the way he thinks about the way he defines russian national security interests. i don't thing they're the definition of many russians. but he has a different view and i think he's marching towards that view. i see no evidence he's changed his mind yet. >> should the talks happen at the end of this coming week if, first of all, russia has a roundly rejected the u.s. arms control proposals, security proposals that have come from the administration? and secondly, we're s

. >> and you're also professor mcfall. so, put on the professor hat for a moment.ecause i was reading some of the history some of us may have forgotten, if we ever knew it, which is how ukraine won its independence. in 1991, from boris yeltsin as a move to exacerbate the soviet union and gorbachev and awarding crimea to ukraine. is that an accurate history? >> pretty good reading, andrea and i'm teaching about that on friday at stanford, exactly this case. but to be serious. putin wants the world to believe that the west took advantage of the soviet union, broke up the soviet union, divided their slavic brothers from them. that's not true. it was the leaders of russia, ukraine and belarus that met in december 1991 and dissolved the soviet union, completely mpt of what we were doing. that inconvenient fact for him i think is very important for people foounderstand. i read this is russia's sphere of influence. why do we care? would you have said that about colonization, oportuguese? french? i think we have to remember this happened. it was decolonization and we have

ambassador mcfall, putin said he wasn't going to invade, he did.ng back his troops. he didn't. is there anything this time that you think he could be saying the truth about? >> well, he did about? >> well, he did say those things but he also said i'm going to destroy the ukrainian military and i'm going to de-naziify the country. he's pretty straight forward about his objectives. remember the debate we were literally just having seven or eight days ago. he's done the worst thing and it hasn't been some limited thing, the land bridge and just remember all those scenarios we have underestimated his ruthlessness. and i think weep need to pay attention to our mistakes then because today not only is he still committed to what he calls the naziification, that means killing mr. zelenskyy and his government, i want to be very clear about that. there are chechens in ukraine today who are trained assassins, who are trained to kill people and carry out denaziification. it's the first time ever it's gone as far as he has to threaten their use. we have deterren

so what is the next step in the conflict joining me now, michael mcfall, former u.s. ambassador to russia and an nbc news and msnbc international affairs analyst. welcome. i'm glad to have you with us i've seen you many times over the proceedings days why is putin or his deputy, lavrov, still talking to people like the german chancellor, like boris johnson and others >> you know, i don't think vladimir putin's decided what he wants to do. we've been speculating for weeks about what his thinking is, what his intentions are he has amassed the capability to launch a major military invasion of ukraine and i'm not getting too excited about reports they're moving back. i would be caution about overreacting to that but as the forces are there, they are also talking to every leader that wants to talk to them, including the president of the united states over the weekend. and you know, they put this tv thing together with lavrov sitting, i don't know if you saw it, but he's sitting 25 feet away from putin. that was all designed to say they want to keep talking. so that's a goo

ambassador michael mcfall say he's not acting in a rational manner. i want to show a tweet from marco rubio. marco rubio said it's pretty obvious to many that something is off with putin. he's always been a killer, but his problem is different and significant. it would be a mistake to think putin would react the same way he would have five years ago. is it a belief of the u.s. government that vladimir putin is mentally unbalanced in some way? >> without getting into his mental imbalance or stability, anyone that watched speech he gave last week, whether it's senator rubio or all of us at the white house, what we heard from president putin was somebody who was not only justifying the invasion of a sovereign country, but had ambitions beyond that. one of the mistakes we all make is looking at this through the prism of global norms and what the global community believes is behavior that people should operate through as leaders in the world. that is not how he sees the world. he's been quite isolated during covid. you saw him have a back and forth with hi

ambassador to russia michael mcfall calls and unhinge free of a russian leader who is isolated, surroundedy yes-men with nuclear weapons. he may be off, something may be really wrong what is your read? >> well, eric, i have not interviewed putin but i have spent a lot of time and russia and even more time recently in ukraine. and i think this is actually a continuation, and escalation of putin's determination to reclaim the former soviet empire. to make sure that the united states does not lead the world. that nato does not surround him. i think that is his desire. but i think rice is also right and that something else has changed in him. perhaps it is the isolation because of covid, his entire family had covid i has not admitted he had it. there is definitely something off at least one friend of mine who watches russia closely said his face is a puffy. that could be a sign of antidepressants or antipsychotics. he has definitely miscalculated this and it's a big if ukrainians can hang on for itself are the result of what he has done has been the exact opposite of what he had wanted to happ

i wanted to ask all of you, but let's start with ambassador mcfall. some years ago i was part of a delegation from the california state senate, and you hosted us. it was a remarkable conversation, i don't know if you remember it. we were there because we were engaged in conversation with the moscow duma and they were in californians specifically, and as a member of the bay area, in the bay, go bears. sorry. they showed us in moscow their efforts for the replication of silicon valley. right after that meeting i got into congress, i remember being at the aspen institute, and one of the members asked these , comments lead to a question. a former kgb officer who served with vladimir putin, after the first ukrainian incident. the question was how can we believe in him in his leadership when he lies? the response was from the kgb officer was he is not lying and -- when everyone knows he is lying. maybe can you respond to that and how we deal with it, and the second part, and forget my -- forgive my sophomoric insight, we hosted the st. petersburg and moscow

pull in michael and ambassador mcfall and john has a six-point question for you.creen a small protest that has taken shape outside of the white house. tell me the view from the west wing today, michael crowley. >> i think there's a kind of shock and horror at what vladimir putin is doing. at the same time you look back at the intelligence and all the warnings from the white house and they really saw this coming a long time ago. so there's shock at actually seeing the reality of it unfold and remarkable how accurately the biden administration was able to predict the way this would play out. i think there's also -- look. probably feels good to come out and punish this aggression. and the u.s. is asserting the role as a leader in the world and defending the rules based international order and calls t rules-based national order but what will the cost of this be? are americans willing to pay the price? i am not sure the total confidence that the vast majority of americans are in for a long and painful fight for ukraine. that is the big question. >> nicole said it would

joining us michael mcfall, served as u.s. ambassador to russia during the obama administration.ood morning to you. >> -- savannah. >> are these sanctions that really bite? did they go far enough? should the u.s. have thrown everything right away at the first sight of an vegas. >> i think it was a good start. the president was strong yesterday calling this an invasion for what it is. when soldiers moved into break-away republics they were moving into the ukrainian territory. so i thought this was a right response. he hasn't thrown everything at them yet they are planning because they expect the invasion will escalate and they want something do when it finally does escalate. >> lot of folks are asking whether diplomacy is still available. some say is there a face-saving way for vladimir putin to get out of this? does he care about that. >> first of all he doesn't care about face saving. who is he facing a safe in front of? the generals t russian people? it is a dictatorship in russia. i left hand to his speech. he gave an hour long speech, or two nights ago. it was angry, rambling

i keep saying what i heard ambassador mcfall said earlier today calling it coercive diplomacy.ng a unified nato very specifically in that neighborhood of ukraine that hopefully vladimir putin will decide not to invade that country. the reality is, though, hearing from john kirby is that every single day putin sends in more troops, more capabilities, more logistical support. every day that are more prepared to invade ukraine and the concern among officials is they could do so quickly and the decision to send the troops forward is not just for deterrent and the reality is also if, in fact, there is a decision to invade ukraine by russia and the u.s. needs to conduct an evacuation or needed for a humanitarian assistance in the region to see the troops the 82nd pulled in for that response. >> also some reporting that even short of an invasion there are and could be more cyber attacks from russia and putin. talk about how the u.s. is trying to protect and defend on that front. >> that's right. so there's a big concern that would way to kick off is a cyber campaign and most likely th

ambassador to russia michael mcfall tweeted out yesterday. biden has given putin a brilliant off ramp by announcing to the world that putin plans to invade, putin can now embarrass biden by not invaing and blaming the west for beating the drums of war, take it, mr. putin, embarrass my president, small price to pay for avoiding war. it is an excellent observation, but congresswoman harman, do you think that putin will actually take that advice? >> i have no idea. i mean, most people here who are very astute putin watchers think he's isolated, with a small number of advisers, and comment that these meetings he's been having with world leaders and including his own foreign minister lavrov, where they're all sitting, you know, 20 feet apart, are weird. and if he's taking no advice and he's, you know, making russia great again, i think that it really won't matter. i would say that as the list of sanctions increases, boris johnson was here yesterday, and the foreign secretary of the uk was also here and they said that in addition to all the other s

here's michael mcfall yesterday. >> he believes his own propaganda.ore very scary. one other thing i would remind you about in terms of getting into putin's head. he's been to war. many times. georgia, 2008. ukraine, 2014. syria, 2015. every single one of those wars he believes that he won. with some justification, by the way. so he is not afraid of war. we keep thinking he's afraid of war. he is not. and he thinks he'll win the next one. >> responding to the sanctions imposed, russia remained defiant saying the penalties will not affect our resolve to keep standing up for our interests and it warned of a quote, strong response. that is where we start this hour with two national security experts and good friends of the program. jeremy bash is here. and msnbc military analyst, retired four star general, barry mccaffrey. general, where do you see things this hour? >> well, i know it's on ap wires just reporting 18 minutes ago that both separatist provinces have requested in writing from the russians military forces for protection. so i think what we oug

the sort of michael mcfall calls it coercive diplomacy and moving the troops into the nato allies' countriesng message to president putin and the other diplomats from russia if president putin makes this mistake and sends the foess across the border there will be severe consequences. we engaged in diplomacies to unite our nato allies in presenting that united front to president putin to try to deter the action. if it can't be there will be serious consequences for the actions. as you know we have announced we are moving troops to the eastern countries in nato in europe to make abundantly clear we stand by the allies. i think the united front of the nato alliance is the best thing to do to try to prevent president putin from making a horrific mistake. >> ron klain, thank you so much for spending time with us during busy days. we are grateful. >> thank you for having me. >>> after the break, our friends weigh in on all the headlines today. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. ♪ i see trees of green ♪ ♪ red roses too ♪ ♪ i see them bloom ♪ ♪ for me and you ♪ ♪ and i think to myself ♪ ♪ what a

. >> richard, ambassador mcfall said something on this program yesterday that has stuck with me. he talked about the stoic of the ukrainian people about their concerns about war. can you speak to that? is that what you're seeing? >> it's important to understand there are some divisions in this country. that is part and parcel to putin's thinking. it's part of his calculus. there is a divide between the ukrainian speaking west and the largely russian speaking far east. and it is a bilingual country. there's not a divide necessarily or animus between the groups, but the people closer to russia tend to have closer ties with russia. there was just an opinion poll out today that showed in the far west, about 70 people would, 70% of people would resist a russian incursion of invasion. that number dropped closer to 30% in the east. like there was a degree of a sympathetic population in crimea. but this country is a large country and the people move freely between the east and west and there are a lot of troops in the east. in fact, most of the most capable ukrainian troops have been mov

. >> michael mcfall, thank you for being with us. we appreciate your insights.ch were down. donny named donald trump as his down brand. here's why. at the start of the week his accounting firm said he was cut ties with the organization. nearly a decade of financial statements could not be believed or trusted. on the same day, conservative media was reeling from john durham, let me underline wildly misrepresented the facts. special counselor durham had to distance himself from the frenzy saying what the other outlets made of his documents was not his fault. oh, really, you write pleadings like that, you throw the bait out there and say it's not your fault? why don't you get somebody other than a third grader to write your pleadings next time. keep them clear. the next day, former president trump issued a statement with new claims about his wealth those claims, of course, didn't line up with what he previously reported. january 6th committee came out and suspended a half doesn't beam to use alternative electors. one of the people's opinions publicly said that dona