mcnerney and the other ceos were just so anti-union. and had this mentality that they could get cheaper labor somewhere else. so all the talent here all this generations of skills. in some ways was thrown away and and the making people here feel like that meant that they lost. the last some pride in the company let's let's get back to the specifics of boeing i've often. heard people say oh boeing should be run by an engineer. you know, the current ceo is not an engineer. but dennis mullenberg was an engineer. i was phil condott as we said earlier. dennis mullenberg was an engineer when he came in following mcnerney. i remember being full of hope. oh, it's an engineer taking over. and one of the first things he did was he signed a new contract with speer the engineering union they did it very quiet negotiations and came up with his new deal. and i thought wow, that's a great sign, but in fact, otherwise, he just kept very straight strictly to the mcnerney way mcnerney had taking them for 18 months to chicago to be under his wing to be gr

in the same way mcnerney looks like a ceo.uld pursue a more predictable was seen as excitable and build that plane. there is another factor that came up which i get into in the book is a concern about his personal life. at that time there been two consecutive ceos who had resigned because in inappropriate relationships wito subordinates. the board could afford to take dthe risk. details you can see the book. [laughter] at this point let me ask some your sources as in many of my stories have to be anonymous. because boeing employees cannot talk to me or you without a pr person beside them or they losea their jobs. can you talk about your sources in my some of them are anonymous? and how you came to trust them? >> i trust them they had direct knowledge of the events. and just then a newspaper article or any other article their situations they can't be named it could affect their career and their livelihood. but. >> he did an incredible amount of research. a lot of reading, possibly travel did you travel to mullen berg's hometown

mcnerney was seen as more the ceo type.here are just some people who look like an nfl quarterback in the same way he looks like a ceo to them would pursue a predictable strategy. there was another risk factor that came up about his personal life and at that time there had been two consecutive ceos. some of the sources, many of my stories have to be anonymous because the employees cannot talk to me or you without a pr person beside them. can you talk about your sources and why some of them are anonymous and how you came to trust them? >> there's direct knowledge of the event of the newspaper or any other article but they have important information. >> i relied on the reporting i've done on the 25 years since. with customers over that time i did zoom interviews with the people overseas. >> the various points that he makes we are running out of time so let me ask a couple of quick questions. as i mentioned. to recover the ceo and in chicago and the commercial airplane chiefs feels are these the right leaders i spent a lot of t