meadows. miss hutchinson has been considered a time appear on capitol hill, representing the trump administration, and we welcome her back. up until now, our hearings have each been organized to address specific elements that president trump's plan to overturn the 2020 election. today, we are departing somewhat from the motto because miss hutchinson's testimony touches on several important and cross cutting topics, topics that are relevant to each of our future hearings. in her role, working for the white house chief of staff, miss hutchinson handled a vast number of sensitive issues. she worked in the west wing, several steps down the hall from the oval office. miss hutchinson spoke daily with members of congress, with high-ranking officials in the administration, with senior white house staff, including mr. meadows, with white house council lawyers and with mr. tony ornato, who served as the white house deputy chief of staff. she also worked on a daily basis with members of the secret servic

meadows did try to overthrow john baron as speaker in 2015 and would meadows do what he did back thenting down on bended knee begging trump for mercy? meadows is in this situation because of the committee, full stop. the committee's work has been so thorough, revelatory and explosive that it sometimes feels like they are showing the department of justice how it should be done so what's taking so long? why isn't the doj out front? according to the "new york times" the shocking testimony of cassidy hutchinson jolted top justice department officials into discussing the topic of mr. trump more directly. at times in the presence of attorney general merrick garland and deputy attorney general lisa monaco. one of the most prominent and well-respected prosecutors in the country andrew weissmann wrote a critical piece in the "new york times" slamming the department's bottom-up approach to investigating the january 6th insurrection saying their strategy is the wrong approach for investigating the january 6th insurrection and that the public hearings of the january 6th select committee should in

meadows. this is about an hour and 45 minutes. >> the select committee to investigate the january 6 attack on the united dates capital will be in order. without objection, the chair is authorized to declare the committee in recess at any point. pursuant to house authority regulation 10, the chair announces the committee's approval to release the deposition material presented during this hearing. good afternoon. in our hearings over the previous weeks, the select committee has laid out the details of a multi-part pressure campaign driven by the former president aimed at overturning the results of the 2020 residential election and blocking the transfer of power. have shown this effort was based on a lie. a lie that the election was stolen. tainted by widespread fraud that donald trump -- tainted by widespread fraud, donald trump's big lie. donald trump summons arm mob his boomers to washington, spurred them to march on the capitol, and failed to take meaningful action to quell the violence, as i

mark meadows. hutchinson revealed that her boss asked for a pardon following the events of january six. meadows has since denied asking for the pardon, but we should make this important note, cassidy hutchinson testified to that under oath. mark meadows has not. let's discuss this with cynthia alksne, a former federal prosecutor in the civil rights division of the justice department and glenn kirschner, also a former prosecutor. luckily for us, they are both msnbc legal analysts. it's good to have both of you with us. you have been helping us near the ship through all the hearings. cynthia, i'd like to start with you. your top line reaction to cassidy hutchinson's testimony and what it means for the committee as it goes forward. >> let me say this about her testimony, besides being a bombshell for all the reasons that we will disc length, it also highlighted why the department of justice needs to get involved. there is all this evidence about conspiracy, and i know we will talk about that. let me h

meadows making such a representation?e you saying -- without getting into that meeting, i will say that that is a statement and a sentiment that i heard from mark meadows. >> that is a statement and a sentiment that i heard from mark meadows, that the president should agree to a graceful exit. welcome back to our primetime recap of the january six hearing today. we heard for the first time from the white house counsel pat cipollone, who revealed to himself that he was known that the election was not stolen, that he believed former president trump should've conceded the election since he lost it. the committee also revealed that lots of senior people in the white house presidents orbit, including the presidents own daughter ivanka and members of the president's cabinet, all also knew that it was over. that it was over after the electors counted the votes on december 14th. >> so i put a call into the president, unlike all on the 13th, we spoke on the 14th and which i conveyed to him that i thought that it was time for him t

do you trust mark meadows to tell the truth?eadows if he put his hand on the bible and said he would tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth i would be inclined to believe that. i don't think he is the most credible out of all the witnesses. you asked me a fair question moments ago. i would want to look at it closely and it would be a close call if cipollone and mark meadows says why, i am absolutely believing cipollone. i think a lot of folks are. mark seems to have gone through very dark period and was apparently according to cassidy detached from the job i don't know if he was having some sort of event where he could not engage. but i think mark is in a really strange place and my guess is if he testifies and he may be compelled to testify because he is under, he is not under criminal indictment yet but has been referred, i think he will take the fifth amendment more often than not. >> you think mark meadows betrayed the country with what we know now about his actions around january 6? >> that case is being m

meadows should go or not? ms. hutchinson: i made it clear to him that i don't think it was a smart idea for him to go to the hotel. i was unsure on everything that was going on their although i knew enough that -- on everything mr. giuliani and his associates were pushing during this period. i did not think it was appropriate for the white house chief of staff to attend or involved in that. i made that clear to him. he mentioned a few more times going to the hotel that evening and eventually dropped the subject the night of the bit and said he would dial in instead. rep. cheney: general flynn has appeared before this committee and when he appeared, he took the fifth. let's view a clip of general michael flynn taking the fifth amendment. >> do you believe the violence on january was justified? -- january 6 was justified? yes. >> could you are a peep question please? -- repeat the question? rep. cheney: do you believe the violence was justified? i am asking both. >> i plead the fifth. rep. cheney: you believe the ba

betsy, what's your understanding of the meadow situation in total?we ended up at this point in which meadows was cooperating, he wasn't, he hasn't been referred, doj has his phone records. >> i think it all comes down to the fact that meadows has a very, very, very, very seasoned criminal defense lawyer, who is one of the most senior justice department officials during the prior administration who's been a fixture of washington crisis and legal crisis management for many years. and he just knows how to handle these types of situations to the best -- to the most strategic way possible. and that's in the case of meadows, where he was able to kind of satisfy everyone. we have folks like members of select comittee the former stuff -- meadows was their star witness, even though he withheld ulcers of things that they wanted really badly. public comments like that are the sort of remarks that make doj maybe think two, three, or four times about charging someone with contempt. the other piece to remember is that it's likely there was some very deep sighs of

mark meadows. meadows' spokesperson, however is denying he or anyone in his camp ever tried to intimidate or shape her testimony. all right. that's a lot to go through. let's turn to a former trump insider for her take, alyssa farah griffin. until december 2020, she was the white house communications director under president trump. and alyssa, you were also friends with cassidy hutchinson. thank you for being here. >> thank you, sara, for having me. >> we've talked about this before. you worked directly with former president trump's chief of staff, mark meadows. from your experience with him, would it be uncharacteristic of him to try to do something like this? he's being accused of someone in his camp trying to intimidate a witness in this testimony, that witness, obviously your friend, cassidy hutchinson. >> listen, the mark meadows of maybe half a decade ago when i first worked for him, this would be unheard of. but the mark meadows that i think began to come out when he was in the west wing and

what about mark meadows?mark meadows knew what was going on at the willard hotel, and do you have any insights into the claims we've heard from the committee that he was interested in atepiding that meeting? >> i don't know. personally. again, when mark meadows took over as chief of staff, i left the west wing probably three weeks later. so, i was gone and i was very much removed. but, again, knowing the way the president worked, knowing the way the west wing worked -- this is just mark meadows, as chief of staff, needs to know those things going on for so many reasons. i can't imagine he wouldn't be aware and i can't imagine the president wouldn't have told him to go there. >> final question. do you recall ever hearing any conversations or discussions around connections to extremist groups, the proud boys, the oath keepers? we're going to see those links explored in the next hearing. does that ring true to you at all? do you know anything about it? >> i don't know anything about it. with regard to january 6t

mark meadows, through his spokesperson ben williamson said they denied that meadows or anyone in his orbit made any attempt to influence hutchinson or her testimony, but this is something the committee is keeping a close eye on. there's a report in the new york times this week that outlines how any of these witnesses, their lawyers are being paid for by organizations with close ties to the former president. the committee is going to work very hard to make sure there's no undue influence in this testimony. they view that to be a veers problem. keep in mind, if they find direct evidence that witnesses were targeted and sbim kated with the express purpose of not telling the truth, that could lead to a crime. >> kplexcellent reporting. joining us now, the author of a book to end the presidency, the power of impeachment. thanks for all your important work over the years. you heard that new reporting from ryan nobles on capitol hill. what is this new avenue, potential witness tampering actually mean for the investigation both for the committee and potentially for the department of justice?

and nowadays, the mark meadows of the world. they talk about how these guys have a lot of criminal exposure, and look at what they did. to a certain extent, they have a point, however bad faith it is in. these guys do have a lot of potential criminal exposure, and when it comes to mark meadows, when it comes to what the department of justice and or the january 6th committee on capitol hill are looking into. it's actually more multifaceted than they are letting on right now when it comes to what is going on in public. we reported at rolling stone today that the january 6th committee has been grilling multiple witnesses, but mark meadows is financing. his financial agreements and secret arrangements for other trump advisers as it pertained to trying to overturn the 2020 election. witnesses came away from this with the clear impression that investigators on the committee were looking for clues, and or evidence of illegality or misconduct. and so there you have it, his problems could be even deeper than what is publicly revealing at

where is mark meadows? >> that donation has raised a lot of eyebrows, but what mark meadows is trying no to cooperate where the committee after basically providing the committee a roadmap. the hundreds of text messages he turned over to the committee are not all the text messages that he has as we understand it to be, but it's a huge volume that allowed them to really understand basically week by week and in some cases, day by day and minute by minute, what was happen nging in the days af november 3rd and the days after january 6th. they would have a much harder task without that. >> thanks very much. here to talk more about cassidy hutchinson is a witness in the ongoing attempt now to attack her including from the former president. jeffrey toobin and denver wriggleman. congressman, i want to get to the next steps of the committee in a moment, but you heard cheney speak strongly last night. i want to play another moment from her speech. >> at this moment, we are confronting a domestic threat that we have ne

now mark meadows through his spokesperson, ben williamson said to cnn they emphatically denied that meadows or anyone in his orbit made any attempt to influence hutchinson or her testimony, but this is something that the committee is keeping a close eye on. there's a report in the new york times this week that outlines how any of these witnesses, coming before the january 6th committee, their lawyers are being paid for by organizations with close ties to the former president. the committee has to work very hard to make sure there is no undue influence in this testimony. they view that to be a serious problem. and of course, keep in mind, wolf, if they find direct evidence that witnesses were targeted and intimidated with the express purpose of not telling the truth, well, that could lead to a crime. wolf? >> excellent new reporting, ryan nobles, thank you very, very much. joining us now, the author of a book to end the presidency, the power of impeachment. there you see the cover. professor tribe, thank you so much for joining us. thanks for all your important work over the years. you heard

this clip about mark meadows today points to mark meadows's state of mind, his intentions behind whats doing in a way that might prove to be a problem for him if he ever faces criminal charges in this matter. >> during this period, he -- i perceived his goal with all of this to keep trump in office. you know, he had very seriously deeply considered that allegations of voter fraud, but when he began acknowledging that maybe there wasn't enough voter fraud to overturn the election, and i witnessed him start to explore potential constitutional loopholes more extensively which were connected to john eastman's theory. >> the white house chief of staff mark meadows seriously deeply consider allegations, basically found there was nothing to them, and instead he turned to trying to find constitutional loopholes to keep trump in power anyway. that is, i know he lost, i am going to try to keep him in power anyway, knowing that he lost. that moment was not a criminal referral of mark meadows to the justice department, but the investigators are handing the justice department basically both of the

mister meadows replied, i am pushing it hard. i agree. don junior responded. this is one you go to the mattresses on. they will try to fox his entire legacy. if this on this, if it gets worse, here's what don junior told us. he meant by go to the mattresses. it's 58. when you say that he needs that. mister meadows needs to go to the mattresses. >> on this issue, we say go to the mattresses. what does that mean? >> just a reference for going all in. it's a godfather reference. >> sean hannity agreed and he also turn to mark meadows for help after the president's second tweet. as you can see, mister hannity texted at 3.31. to say trump needed to deliver a statement to the nation telling the rioters to leave the capitol. mister meadows responded that he was quote on it. don junior and sean hannity. we're not the only ones who import mister meadows to get the president to speak to the nation and tell the mob to leave to go home. go throughout the attack. mister meadows received tax from republican members of congress from current and former trump administration of

you try to flip meadows.rd nixon, and john dean saw the president engage in illegal acts and crimes, and he told the american people about it. cipollone is a perfect witness who knew what was happening. he knew what meadows did. he knew what the president did. he would be a vital witness. >> that is exactly where my mind went. next, jennifer, your thoughts on cipollone's testimony and how crucial it will be. >> it's very crucial. remember, he was warning trump we are going to have every law and the books thrown at us. we go up to the capital. he was there for almost all of the critical meetings with john eastman as he's spinning out this plot to try to induce alternate electors. he was there when he grabbed the somewhat catatonic mark meadows and pulled him in to the adjunct room to the oval office on that afternoon around 2:00 to try to get trump to call off the mob, when in fact he wouldn't. so he is there, almost continually throughout this. it really is a comment on the low character and low professional

the conversation with mark meadows on january 6th where mark meadows, you know, through ms. hutchinson's testimony doesn't think they're doing anything wrong he's there. he's part of that conversation. so he is -- we're talking about whether he's adding new information and i'm sure that will be significant but just confirming some of the things that have been said that put him in the room, i think have just enormous political consequences. look, is it going to crater donald trump's support? no. there is no information that's going to do that but is all of this i think lowering the ceiling on his potential support, lowering the ceiling on the number of americans that can trust him with the power of the presidency again? i do think. >> maybe it's raising the fatigue factor. i want to listen whands of things and how often, frankly, we've heard pat cipollone's name and all these conversations. listen to this. >> i remember pat saying to him something to the effect of the riders have gotten to the capitol, mark, we need to go see the president now and mark looked up at him ask sa

a spokesman for meadows denies the accusation. also a holiday travel night mash. sky high gas prices. flight delays and stormy weather bringing misery to millions of americans. we'll have a foerk on to what to expect. also this hour a cnn exclusive. bri brittney griner's wife. we want to welcome the viewers here in the united states and around the world. i'm wolf blitzer. you're in "the situation room." alleged pressure on a former white house aird that gave bombshell testimony to the house january 6 select committee. congressional correspondent ryan nobles is working the story. tell us what you're picking up. >> reporter: we are learning about the committee's concern that witnesses to the investigation could be intimidated by former members of the trump administration, pips the president himself. one witness they're concerned about is cassidy hutchinson. witness intimidation is a serious focus. cnn learned that the examples of possible witness intimidation on tuesday directed at the witness cassidy hutchinson. >> you will do the right thing when you go in for you

you also singled out mark meadows role in this. this -- washington post said over the phone, his phone records taking for review. you say that the doj could flip meadows in order to get him to turn on donald trump. that's the kind of language that we heard during the mueller investigation, in relation to paul manafort, michael flynn. but crime would mark meadows be charged with, or not charged with, as part of any kind of deal to get him to flip? >> so i think one of the ways in which he is very criminally exposed, the very crimes that carol leonnig just outlined out herself. basically hand-in-hand with president trump, he ran points on some of these issues for the fake electors. he ran points on trying to influence pence as well. and so the issue is that, he has even greater exposure, in some senses more than trump, because there is also evidence in the record from the january six committee, that meadows knew trump had lost. he said that to bill barr. bill barr said he told me. you know trump will come around because he understand

| pompeo but more meadows, where meadows and/or mike - pompeo but more meadows, pompeo might— pompeoard _ emotional and in a bad place. as you heard secretary - emotional and in a bad place. | as you heard secretary scalia, wanted president trump to convene a cabinet meeting. he put his request and a memo to the president and here is what it said. you can see that secretary scalia recommended that the president quote, no longer publicly questioned the election results, after wednesday, no—one can deny this is harmful. secretary scalia also highlighted the importance of the public knowing the president would invoke his cabinet in decision—making and not certain private individuals. the secretary scalia did not say it, he was referring to rudy giuliani and the rest of the so—called clown car working with president trump to try to overturn the election. secretary scalia understood that the president needed to do more to reassure the public about the last few weeks of the trump administration. mr pottinger, when you made the decision to resign, did you walk out of the white house immedia

the conversation with mark meadows on jan 6 where mark meadows through hutchinson's testimony says he does not think he is doing anything wrong, he is there. he is -- we are talking about adding new information that will be significant but just confirming some of the things that already have been said that put him in the room. i think i just have enormous political consequences. is it going to crater trump support? no information that will do it. is it lowering the ceiling on the number of americans that can trust him with the power of precedency again. i think it will. >> maybe raising the fatigue factor as well. i want to listen as what kinds of things and how often we have heard his name in all of these conversations, listen to this. >> and i remember pat saying to him, something to the fact of, the rioters have gotten to the capitol, mark, we need to go down and see the president, now. mark looked up and said, he does not want to do anything, pat. i remember pat saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more. they are literally calling for the vice president

the general milley did hear from mark meadows.all and his calls with vice president pence tell you everything you need to know about president trump's dereliction of duty. let us listen. >> he said, this is from memory, he said, we have to kill the narrative that the vice president is making all the decisions. we need to establish the narrative that, you know, that the president is still in charge and that things are steady or stable, or words to that effect. i interpreted that as politics, politics, politics, red flag for me personally, no action. but i remember distinctly, and -- yes i don't do political narratives. >> so while president trump and his advisers were drained, other leaders upheld their oaths to do the right thing. maybe it was exhausting to get the president to put out that video, but think about the law enforcement officers who were attacked by the mob that day. and president trump had summoned thumb himself to washington. and what about president trump? he watched tv, tweeted, called senators to try to delay the

but it's clearly mark meadows.dy where this is being pointed to now. >> do you think from the mark meadows that you know, that he would be capable of doing something like -- >> without question. >> intimidate a witness. >> without question. john baner in the book talks about a story of an unnamed member of congress that everyone knows is mark meadows. that literally got on his knees in the speakers office and said i beg you to forgive me. that's mark meadows. >> peak travel season arrived in the u.s. with the fourth of july holiday weekend. airlines and passengers bracing for chaos. and cnn report, the blame game well under way. >> millions of passengers are descending on airports along with summer storms putting short staffed airlines to their biggest test in years. the tsa screened 2.4 million passengers at u.s. airports on thursday. just shy of a new pandemic era record. >> it feels more like 2019 than the prior two years. >> with more problems for passengers. 3.5% of all flights this year have been canceled. a

how does mark meadows continue to float out there?t go anywhere. >>> former oath keepers former spokesman and witness jason van tonight move joins me next. we'll be right back. n n tonight move joins meturned frog of the possibilities ahead. ♪♪ where your dad waited for his dad to come home from the factory. we'll be right back. ancestry can guide you to family discoveries in the 1950 census. see what you can uncover at ancestry. announcer: type 2 diabetes? discover the power of 3 in the ozempic® tri-zone. in my ozempic® tri-zone, i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. announcer: ozempic® provides powerful a1c reduction. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. and you may lose weight. adults lost up to 14 pounds. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever ha

mark meadows being one of them. pat cipollone being another one of them is someone that the president has treated poorly, who the former president has pibb liblg le com pinned and he was assed if a no one any he still remaining, he is coming closer to appearing and providing some sort of written deposition next week to the committee behind closed doors. that being said, i think many moments of cassidy's testimony which was really jam-packed with news beyond this secret service incident that she described having and very clearly described it as a secondhand account from tony ornato, but that meadows was there throughout all of trump's potential dereliction of duty and also contributed to that dereliction of duty by -- by doing nothing himself. >> so harry litman, we know that when cassidy hutchinson had the trump white house lawyer she hadn't -- i don't want to say she had cooperated and she hadn't done the story telling she did in her live testimony. we know when she makes the switch she does. we know she received t

hill time, meadows' camp saying no one from meadows' camp himself or otherwise has ever attempted to intimidate or shape ms. hutchinson's committee. how do you reconcile the confirmation we're getting from our reporting, joyce, to the meadows' camp's statement that we have here? >> mark meadows should come and say that under oath to the committee. because until he does that, until he matches hutchinson's testimony under oath, this is just another statement from someone who has been a little bit frivolous with the truth in the past. you know, these statements, when you look at them, the reported threats, and i think they're very clearly threats that are made to cassidy hutchinson, they read like scenes from a part of the "godfather" franchise. these are the things, when you've agreed to testify and you're involved in organized crime. this isn't a friendly communication, it's a very clear threat that's been issued. the real question is how long it will take the justice department to open an investigation and begin looking at this. doj has to take witness intimidation very seriously, be

could that mean trouble for meadows? >> well, first of all, kate, in my prosecutorial view, those allegations made by cassidy hutchinson are absolutely across the line, i believe witness tampering. if your intent is to influence in any way the testimony, that can be witness tampering as well. now there's three parties here, there's cassidy hutchinson who received the communication, there's this intermediary, we don't know who it is and now reporting that they originated from mark meadows so intermediary clearly can be liable, and if you can prove they started with mark meadows, which is hardered to do because he's a step removed, he could be responsible legally as well. >> david, you don't know mark meadows but do know how donald trump operates and his pattern of behavior, often using intermediaries to intimidate or influence others, heard about others like michael cohen talked about this often. how has he been able to get away with this for so long, even aside from connecting him with the intimidation suggested here? >>

meadows, and asked me to meet with mr. johnson. and i told him this whole thing about italy had been debunked and that should be the end of that. and i certainly wasn't going to meet with this person. and he initially seemed to accept that and he said why won't you meet with them i? said, because if he has real evidence? , which this video doesn't show, he can walk into an fbi field office anywhere in the united states -- this 55 of them and. andy said, okay. then he called me back a few minutes later and complained and said i, didn't tell you, but this fellow johnson is working with rudy giuliani and mr. giuliani is really offended that you would think they have to go to an fbi field office. that's insulting. so can you just have the fbi or, you meet with these guys? and by then i was somewhat agitated and told him that there was no way on earth that i was going to do that, i wasn't going to beat with johnson, i certainly wasn't going to beat with mr. giuliani, i made that clear repeatedly and said that santa that, don't worry tha

so meadows has a lot of exposure for the core crimes. the justice department says we strike a deal with you. you flip and cooperate with us or provide you immunity and you cooperate with us. and give us everything you know about presidentan trump, the principal on all of these schemes. >> and how significant is it, in your view, two pence aides, mark short and greg jacob recently testified to a grand jury, two highest known white house officials to do so? >> i think it's incredibly significant. it means the investigators are going straight into the white house. according to "the wall street journal" reporting andth corroborated now with the washington post, thell question theob prosecutor are asking and asked specifically of jacob and short is about, for example, this january 4th meeting with president trump. that's theua meeting where trums only lawyer to tell him the plan was legal in the meeting concedes it is illegal for pence to carry out this scheme. and that's what the prosecutors are asking these two very senior white house offic

do you think that they were on another track by then with meadows? is that a fair assumption, carol? >> you know, nicole. i have to say that i can't say with certainty. i'm so glad, by the way, i love a time line and we've made similar ones and you and i are on the same track in that regard. i don't like to say what i don't know, and i don't know if the access to his call data records related in any way to deciding not to prosecute. my sense is from talking to sources and also just informed prosecutors and former prosecutors who worked in some of those offices that the decision with regard to meadows was how close he was to donald trump and what a senior official he was in term of the privilege of the executive to get the council and unadulterated, unabridged and unmitigated advice of senior aides. the president has that right and the decision not to prosecute had to do with that bond that's allowed between the president and the seniormost officials and the one that's most important is the national security adviser, but a white house chief of staff h

by that time meadows had caught up with me, and, leaving the office. caught up to me and said, they said look, i think he is becoming more realistic and knows that there is a limit to how far he can take this. and then, jared said, you know, we are working on this. we are working on it. >> likewise, in this testimony cassidy hutchinson, an aide to mark meadows, described her conversations with president trump's director of national intelligence, a former republican congressman. >> he had expressed to me that he was concerned it could spiral out of control. and, potentially, be dangerous, either for our democracy or the way that things were going for the sixth. >> of course, underlying all of this is the fundamental principle that the president of the united states cannot simply disregard the rulings of state and federal courts, which are empowered to address specific, election related claims. the president cannot simply pretend that the courts have not ruled. >> by that time, the president or his associates had lost 60 out of 61 cases that they had bro

vice president pence. >> mark meadows, as and chief of staff mark meadows. trump's former deputy press secretary sarah matthews is also going to testify on thursday, apparently. remember, she already testified to this. >> the situation was already bad, and so, it felt like he was pouring gasoline on the fire by tweeting that. >> and matthew pottinger, that former deputy national security visor, he testified that he resigned because of that tweet. >> that is where i knew i was leaving that day, one cyber in that tweet. >> i am wondering what other holds pottinger might be able to fill in. we want to have access by thursday, secret service text messages, but what else can you tell us about what was happening in those hallways? maybe you can speak to trump's alleged failures to call up the national guard. this is from jonathan carl's book, called the trail. he says pottinger could see trump was not there. he was still in his private dining room watching television while the capital was being ransacked by his supporters. after several minutes, chief of staff mar

it was mark meadows, hutchinson's old boss. a spokesman for meadows denies this. but a new piece from the washington post chronicles the long and well documented history of the use of exactly this kind of intimidation behavior towards witnesses from trump world. the report reads, quote, the reports from multiple states of federal and -- investigations points to similar pattern. trump and his close allies privately showered witnesses were flattery and attention, extending vegas shown says that staying loyal to trump would be better than crossing him. in case anyone forgot, witness tampering is in fact illegal, which is why if the text messages hutchinson are proved to have been sent from any of the ex presidents coons, there could be far reaching implications. let's kick things off with better which of someone, she is a political correspondent for politico and contributor msnbc, betsy, good morning to you, it has been quite a week. a lot of information to digest, but it is not just the testimony that we heard at the hearing on tuesday, it is everything that has com

but as a spokesperson for mark meadows is denying that telling us in a statement, quote, no one fromeadows camp himself or otherwise has ever attempted to intimidate or shake myths hutchinson's testimony to the committee. this new development is now sparking reaction among mark meadows's former colleagues on capitol hill. take a listen to congresswoman madeleine dean's reaction here. >> the text message or phone calls, whatever communication from somebody connected to the former president to somebody who is going to be offering witness testimony, is extremely troubling. i know as a lawyer, the only thing number one you wouldn't interfere with somebody testifying with a possible adverse consequence to you. but number two, the only thing if your effort caught talking to somebody would be, just tell the truth. that is all you have to do. you don't say, do the right thing and he will be reading depositions. he will be reading transcripts. very strange, very intimidating. >> and committee members are calling this witness tampering. they are saying this is a form of obstructing justice tha

meadows in his office on the couch. he was scrolling through his phone.r leaning against the doorway and saying, "i just had an interesting conversation with rudy, mark. it sounds like we're going to go to the capitol." he didn't look up from his phone and said something to the effect of, "there's a lot going on, cass. but, i don't know. things might get real, real bad on january 6th." >> stephen: so, the president's chief of staff knew there could be terrible consequences, and went ahead with it anyway? "huh, what? yeah, oh, yeah, i think this rash might be an s.t.d., but... i don't know, let's put on some marvin gaye and just see where the evening takes us." ( laughter ) the president really wanted to accompany his mob up to the capitol, but white house lawyer pat cipollone really did not want that to happen, for a damn good reason. >> i saw mr. cipollone right before i walked out onto west exec that morning. and mr. cipollone said something to the effect of, "please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy. keep in touch with me. we're going to

meadows. >> i see, and again, do you know if it was on november 23rd or some point? >> again, i -- it was probably, you know, around that time, it was probably subsequent to that time. it was not a one-time statement. >> mr. meadows has refused to testify and the committee is in litigation with him. many other white house officials share the view that once the litigation ended and the electoral college met, the election was over. and here is president trump's former press secretary. >> i wanted to clarify, so back to my previous question, it was your view then, or was it your view that the effort to overturn the election should have stopped once litigation was complete? >> in my view, upon the conclusion of litigation with when i began to plan for life after the administration. >> and this is what ivanka trump told us. >> december 14th was the day on which the electoral college met when the electors and the country met and cast the electoral votes consistent with the popular vote in each state

mister meadows replied, i am pushing it hard. i agree, don junior responded, this is one you go to the mattresses on, they will try to fuck his entire legacy. if this on this, if it gets worse. here's what don junior told us. he meant by go to the mattresses . it's 58 when you say that he need them. mr. meadows needs to go to mattresses on this issue. when you say, go to the mattresses, what does that mean? just a reference for going all in and it's a godfather reference sean hannity agreed and he also turned to mark meadows for help. after the president's 2nd tweet. as you can see mister handled, he texted at 331 to say tromp needed to deliver a statement to the nation, telling the rioters to leave the capital. mister meadows responded that he was quote on it. don junior and sean hannity were not the only ones who implored mister meadows to get the president to speak to the nation and tell the mob to leave, to go home, go all throughout the attack, mister meadows received tax from republican members of congress from current and