and i think meg greenfield who was also attending those dinners that kay would give -- she was one influentialat picking tom toles when she was the editor for the editorial page and i like his stuff very much. >> just to comment and then sort of a question about what we've been talking about. the first that indeed he was a chicago boy. he went to -- he went to a school which is down the block from where i grew up. and he went to school with the father of a friend of mine who tells -- who was also an artist. who tells the story that indeed the high school -- it's called sen high school in chicago in glennwood. and it turns out herb was thrown off the newspaper there, the student newspaper, but it wasn't for anything that he drew. it was actually for something that he wrote. and which was -- which is one of the great ironies. >> that's funny about -- herb started out -- his brother, bill, was a well-known reporter, top reporter for the "chicago tribune." a political reporter. his father, herb's father had been a chemist and inventor and an artist and had been a reporter himself at some point. so