. >> well, john mendelson, a wonderful thinker on wall street, he was the one who coined the phrase, dr. copper, the metal with a ph.d in economics. and i haven't talked to him in the past 30 years about this, but his contention, which makes great sense, is that copper, as a basic industrial metal, its price is an important indicator of the trend in real business activity. and it seems to me what's happening in china with respect to the buildup of inventories and base metals, including copper, is a telltale sign of consequences, among other things, the suppression of prices, and the manipulation of credit, which in china are carried to extremes. >> and the you look at the chart of copper, you only have to be led to believe that business is deteriorating, it's getting worse, and of course that leade me to the fact that the fed is just going to continue to be there. >> yeah. >> it all comes back to the fed. >> it does, until -- >> it doesn't. >> people rebel against the fed. they rebelled against the fed in the late '70s. don't forget, j. william miller, then chairman to have the feder