the bank of england's mervyn king said, we all know that he is a man of total integrity, extraordinary, and most important of all, courage. such people are rare. his country will miss him. hildebrand believes strong leadership is having the courage to act in the face of adversity. when you were head of the snb, what was your decisive moment? philipp: in my time we had two i would say. one was the rescue of ubs, which was a very difficult moment. in many ways it went against everything we believed in, and yet we knew we needed to do it. we also knew it would create tremendous anger in the population. that was clear. and of course, it has turned out that way at a global level. and that it would take a long time for banking to redeem itself. so we knew the consequences were in many ways very significant, and yet we had deep conviction that at that moment we had no choice but to proceed. the other one, obviously, was the introduction of the minimum rate. francine: on ubs, what was -- it was a very difficult day. do you remember some of the conversations that you had at the time where you r