and the danger is down the road iraq looks even messier than -- syria looks even messier than iraq did in terms of trying to recreate a nation. that's where we get into this problem with, you pointed out of we know how to get in but don't know how to get out. >> richard, tell me about your theory. your book is about how domestic policy really does influence ability to have foreign policy. >> let me say one thing, though, about syria, first, chris. i think there is something of an in between option. i think the president's moving in the right direction. i think some selective arming of the syrian opposition makes sense. we can try diplomacy. i'm not sure what it will do. i'd even be in favor of limited cruise missile strikes. i'm trying to find, if you will, something of a goldilocks approach. i don't think we have unlimited stakes in syria. i don't think we ought to do unlimited things. on the other hand, i don't think we can simply walk away and say we have no interest or stake in its outcome. what we have to do is take a step back and look at this on the full chess board. we've got t

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that's where it will get even messier. >> it seems that part of the argument, at least public opinionnd the public war, that seems to have been fought. i mean, you have conservatives. you've got liberals. everyone agreeing for the first time since i can remember significantly and having grown up in texas my whole entire life. this is the first time i've seen such an agreement on immigration reform. >> especially with regard to the business labor coalition. that's what derailed it last time. and the fact that they're even agreeing in a broad sense on the principles, that's an historic accomplishment. that derailed it before. all that is good. the public support is there, the momentum is there. we have in this party and we've had for quite some time a very vocal, a minority. but they're very vocal and especially in certain gerrymandering districts, they can exert some pull and kill the deal in the house. so there is still that danger. it is april fools' day. no joke, i truly believe things have not, the odds have not been this good in a long time. >> lindsay graham said on cnn, he think

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about at least 70,000 civilian deaths, many of those people have died noncombatants, the part of messier, atrocities. we had last night at a dinner, we have the u.n. high commissioner of refugees who told me personally of the incredible displacement going on. we have now some 2 million people displaced either internally or refugees. i mean, this is an atrocity that is happening in slow motion before our eyes. why in this case do you think the international committee is so paralyzed to act? and do you think, now we have reports that assad they had used or did use chemical weapons which makes it even more dangerous. what are your thoughts about, number one, why is it so difficult for the world to act in a preventive way when everyone agrees you say prevention is better? and number two, what might be some concrete steps forward? >> so let's talk about it for i do, i want to point a couple of instances where we actually have been able to act preventively. it's one of those things it's hard to prove what would've happened had we not acted, we don't know but we can imagine. and so for example,

lot of places, and so i thought i'd take that analogy and make it knife because knife fights are messierand so that's where the title came from. >> steve in california, you're on with mike mazzetti of the new york times. >> caller: hi, yes, the united states has not declared war in over 70 years. the wars we fought korea, vietnam, iraq, afghanistan, have all been basically unconstitutional. they seem to have given up any resemblance of declaring war. congress has no stomach to declare war, but, obviously, has no problem fighting them. i wonder whether or not you think that the militarization of the cia, potential conflict between the different agencies, and the defense department might, in fact, affect whether or not we return to the basic principle that congress declares war, not essentially wars fought by executive department with the influence to congress. do you think there's any political will for that, any operational will, or do you think the american people just don't care? >> well, the question without whether people care or not, you know, basically the cia has been up running t

so i thought i would take his analogy and make it a nice because nice fights are a lot messier. >> host: steve, california, you're on with mark mazzetti from "the new york times." >> caller: this. the united states has not declared war in over 70 years. the wars we thought, korea, vietnam, iraq, afghanistan have all been basically unconstitutional. we seem to have given up any a semblance of pretending to declare war, congress seems to have no stomach to declaring war but obviously no problem fighting them. i'm wondering whether or not you think that the militarization of the cia, potential conflict between the different agencies and the defense department might in fact said whether that we return to the brute basic principle that congress declares war, to notntis the executive department -- [inaudible]. do you think there's any political will to that, any operational will, or do you think the american people just don't care? >> guest: well, if you question about whether people care or not, basically this day has been running this war on the basis of a presidential finding that was sign