they learn more about metadata -- about people from metadata than they do about content surveillance. plays a very important role, but it is the u.k. through their invasion into all sorts of systems, including controversial means of hacking that is a primary threat to the privacy of european citizens, when it comes to their telephone and e-mail communications. that is more so than the nsa. >> thank you. the last speaker on the list. >> thank you. i come from sweden. programk there was a showing how the swedish security agency are very intimately connected to the nsa. would be an active part in breaking into the information? . that was a new revelation that shocked people in sweden. i am happy to tell you that i created a lot of attention in sweden. we have the government basically saying that not all federal laws of and followed. revelations?e be will thereuld swedes on that thing? there be morell on the involvement of the european government? i think that is important here. you mentioned not jeopardizing lives. can i feel confident that you're thinking about your own security and the

if you are collecting the metadata you will know every thing about the medical condition. the same with somebody who calls a suicide hotline or a drug addiction clinic or somebody who is speaking with someone who is not their spouse late at night or any number of other types of intimate activity that human beings engage in that you probably wouldn't be able to if you are reading the e-mails or listening to telephone calls but that you will instantly be able to understand by collecting their metadata. beyond that there are very sophisticated, and increasingly sophisticated, tools for analyzing metadata when it is collected en masse to not only understand who your targets are speaking to but who those people are speaking to -- [no audio] and to develop a very comprehensive picture of the network of associations and friends of the various individuals, but also of a society generally, to have a very invasive understanding of the private behavior, private associations, either thoughts of the -- private thoughts of the people whom you have placed under surveillance by collection

from metadata analysis than content.i'm glad you brought up the u.k. , because when it comes to european metadata, the nsa plays a very important role but it is the u.k. through their interception of underwater fiber-optic cables and their invasion into all sorts of systems, including by very controversial means of hacking that is a primary threat to the privacy of european citizens when it comes to their telephone and e-mail communications, at least as much or more so than the nsa. >> thank you. the last speaker on the list. >> thank you. i come from sweden and last week, swedish television showed a program there you were one of the reporters showing how the swedish security agency are intimately connected to the nsa and that they play an active part in breaking into computers. that was a new revelation for people in sweden. i'm happy to tell you this has created quite a lot of attention in sweden and at the moment, we have the government basically saying they hope it will be followed and i get the impression if there a

he testified before the european union, emphasizing the nsa's interest in metadata. >> collecting metadatahe supreme priority of the agency because it enables the nsa to invade people's privacy more effectively than the interception of content. i think sometimes it is difficult to understand that in the abstract, but it is easy to understand when concrete examples are used. so if you can imagine, for example, a woman who decides she wants to get an abortion, if you're listening in on her phone call, what you'll hear is her calling the clinic, the clinical answer with a generic sounding name like eastside clinic or something like that, and you'll hear the woman who you decided to target for surveillance ask for an appointment tuesday at 2:00 and then hang up the phone. you'll have no idea why she called or even what kind of clinic she called or what the purpose was. but if you're collecting her metadata, you will see the phone number she called and then be able to identify it as an abortion clinic. you will know how many times she called the clinic and you will have exactly the information

it would be all metadata, not just e-mail metadata. >> that is correct. it would be limited to the metadata in that regard. >> if i make sure i am understanding the answer, the limitation would be on the metadata. >> it could not be content. in the latest order of the fisa court, it excluded certain data as well. >> you have to show that the categories of metadata that you are seeking are relevant to the investigation. >> you talked about legislation and updating electronic communication, and you inquire about criminal matters, how can the government in -- obtaining probable cause warrant. section 2.15 of the usa patriot act requires government to show relevance to authorize intelligence investigation in order to obtain records. i am not talking about all collection. section 2.15 relies upon obtaining the content of stored communications from a third- party provider. >> not that i'm aware of. >> i'm hesitant to give an answer to that. it is not a question i have ever asked. i prefer to get back to you to that. i do not know the answer sitting here. >> can

it would be all metadata, not just e-mail metadata. >> that is correct. it would be limited to the metadata in that regard. >> if i make sure i am understanding the answer, the limitation would be on the metadata. >> it could not be content. fisae latest order of the it excluded certain data as well. >> you have to show that the categories of metadata that you are seeking are relevant to the investigation. you talked about legislation and updating electronic communication, and you inquire about criminal matters, how can the government in -- obtaining probable cause warrant. section 2.15 of the usa patriot act requires government to show relevance to authorize intelligence investigation in order to obtain records. i am not talking about all collection. section 2.15 relies upon obtaining the content of stored communications from a third- party provider. >> not that i'm aware of. >> i'm hesitant to give an answer to that. it is not a question i have ever asked. i prefer to get back to you to that. i do not know the answer sitting here. >> can you get back to

with respect to the metadata collection under the business records provision of fisa, the power of metadata. basically, this argument is that metadata is a powerful tool, can reveal an awful lot about us and there should be limits on the collection and use of it. i don't disagree with the general proposition, but the problem with the argument made on 215 is that the worrisome assemblage of americans' metadata bears no relation to the existing 215 program congress is currently considers. it does collect an enormous volume of americans' telephone detail records, but the collected information does not appear to include content of phone calls, names of subscribe subscribers, payment information or location information. the vast majority of it is never viewed by human eyes and the records are handled under court order rules. so of the arguments that congress should outlaw collection altogether for better or for worse, every day americansout-law bulk communication all together, we all, regular people, government leaders, as well as those who are national security threats, use the internet, comput

>> so under 215, all of the data is going into a repository. >> metadata. >> metadata. if for example i'm talking to a foreign terrorist my number would automatically hit that link. in fact, you probably would want to know that. i know the white house would. >> we need to know that. >> the issue would be how many of those. what we would do is we would look at those and basended on our analysis give those numbers that are aprep appropriate to the f.b.i. to go through the appropriate process to look at those numbers. >> mark mazzetti of the new york times. we have seen the hearings in the past year with general alexander and director clapper. among the revealations in the past year have been the tapping of the cell phones of foreign leaders. what has that meant to the administration? how impactful has that been? >> it has been incredibly embarrassing for the obama administration. it has taken up a lot of time of senior officials trying to explain to allied governments specifically how this happens. now, many allied governments are not surprised that even friendly governme

from metadata analysis than content.i'm glad you brought up the u.k. , because when it comes to european metadata, the nsa plays a very important role but it is the u.k. through their interception of underwater fiber-optic cables and their invasion into all sorts of systems, including by very controversial means of hacking that is a primary threat to the privacy of european citizens when it comes to their telephone and e-mail communications, at least as much or more so than the nsa. >> thank you. the last speaker on the list. >> thank you. i come from sweden and last week, swedish television showed a program there you were one of the reporters showing how the swedish security agency are intimately connected to the nsa and that they play an active part in breaking into computers. that was a new revelation for people in sweden. i'm happy to tell you this has created quite a lot of attention in sweden and at the moment, we have the government basically saying they hope it will be followed and i get the impression if there a

now, the metadata is not constitutionally guaranteed to be first amendment material. the supreme court has passed on that. but having said that, we have got to examine ways to be able to get data, to get intelligence that is operable and that can prevent plots from hatching and americans from being killed. that is the goal. now if we can do it in another way, we are looking to do it in another way. we would like to. if we can't, we can't. >> could you say that this program has thwarted some specific attacks? >> well, it has. but that is classified. we discussed it in there. i gather there is -- i have to there is a report on that. i'm going to look at that report. >> senator, was this a regular meeting or did you put this together because -- >> we just put this together. because what happened -- we just put this together quickly as a briefing because on the floor a number of members came up to me and said we really need a briefing. and what also happened is members who briefed made comments they were astonished, they didn't know this was happening. we thought so many

meaningful nd most census in collection of metadata is more invasive. it's the nsa itself throughout the documents. metadata is the upreme priority of the agency, not because it protects people's privacy, but it enables the nsa people's privacy more effectively than the interception of content. easy to understand the abstra abstract. you can imagine, for example, a woman is going to get abortion, if you're listening in on your phone call, what you her calling the clinic, the clinic will answer ith the generic-sounding name like east-side clinic or something like that. ou will hear the woman who you decided to target for surveillance, ask for an appointment tuesday at 2:00. appointment tuesday at 2:00. get to the phone. you have no idea why she called clinic she of called or what kind of purpose it was. but if you collect the metadata, see the phone number that you called, you will be able to identify it as an abortion clinic. you won't know how many times she called that clinic. you can see somebody who has hiv, calls a doctor specializing hiv once ever

do you think the metadata or -- we just heard from european experts who said metadata can give you atime and place to allow you to --ntify a person area person. if it is sensitive data, should it be protected? in your country and the united the role of the united kingdom is very important in this. do you think metadata should be protected? >> i talked earlier about why i think the collection, the mask collection of metadata is more invasive than the interception of content, the ability to read people's mail or listen to their telephone calls. the court decision that came out of the united states that found the metadata program violated the privacy rights of americans is extremely compelling about andmetadata is so invasive i would encourage you to read it read it.- to the idea that it's simply a list of harmless information is antiquated. it's from an era where communications were radically different than they are now. technology and what we use our phones for and what governments have been able to do in terms of analyzing metadata, metadata is what the focal point of these surveilla

very controversial metadata program the u.s. president barack obama was asked to identify any specific instance in which analysis of the n.s.a.'s bulk metadata collection actually stopped an imminent attack the u.s. president could not identify one instance or at least he did not give one example to the journalists that were asking him now u.s. officials have for many years asked americans to sacrifice some of their privacy in the name of security but so far no top u.s. official can mention any danger imminent danger that's been thwarted through the collection of everyone's. personal information. we didn't hear from the antiwar answer coalition says the u.s. government has failed to produce any evidence that spying technology is actually being used against terrorists but president we have something that certainly reveal it because this case has been so terribly damaging the a about the n.s.a. from the congress this is the most important program and if we don't do it in the whole world is going to collapse and terrorists will ove

>> so under 215, all of the data is going into a repository. >> metadata. >> metadata. if, for example, i'm talking to a foreign terrorist my number would automatically hit that link. in fact, you probably would want to know that. i know the white house would. >> we need to know that. >> the issue would be how many of those. what we would do is we would look at those and based on our analysis give those numbers that are appropriate to the f.b.i. to go through the appropriate process to look at those numbers. >> mark mazzetti of the "new york times." we have seen the hearings in the past year with general alexander and director clapper. among the revelations in the past year have been the tapping of the cell phones of foreign leaders. what has that meant to the administration? how impactful has that been? >> it has been incredibly embarrassing for the obama administration. it has taken up a lot of time of senior officials trying to explain to allied governments specifically how this happens. now, many allied governments are not surprised that even friendly governments sp

but if you are collecting her metadata, you will see that she called. you will be able to identify it as an abortion clinic. you will know how many times she called the clinic. and you'll have exactly the information that you wouldn't have i simply listening to the phone call. the same for somebody who has hiv and calls a doctor specializing in hiv. if you're listening to their phone calls, you will not have an idea what kind of doctor they are calling. but if you're looking at their meta-data you will know everything about them. the same with suicide hotline or drug addiction clinic or somebody who is speaking with someone who is not their spouse late at night or any number of other types of intimate activities that human beings engage in that you probably wouldn't be able to apprehend reading their e-mails or listening to telephone calls, but that you will instantly be a ble to understand when collect in her metadata. there are sophisticated tools for analyzing metadata when it is collected in mass to understand who your target are speaking to, and wh

with respect to the metadata collection under the business records provision of fisa, the power of metadata. basically, this argument is that metadata is a powerful tool, can reveal an awful lot about us and there should be limits on the collection and use of it. i don't disagree with the general proposition, but the problem with the argument made on 215 is that the worrisome assemblage of americans' metadata bears no relation to the existing 215 program congress is currently considers. it does collect an enormous volume of americans' telephone detail records, but the collected information does not appear to include content of phone calls, names of subscribe subscribers, payment information or location information. the vast majority of it is never viewed by human eyes and the records are handled under court order rules. so of the arguments that congress should outlaw collection altogether for better or for worse, every day americansout-law bulk communication all together, we all, regular people, government leaders, as well as those who are national security threats, use the internet, comput

, not just e- mail metadata? >> i think that is correct, but would be limited to the metadata in that regard. >> if i could make sure i understand mr. cole's answer. the only limitation would be that it would be metadata? >> it cannot be content. and the latest order of the fisa court under 215 specifically excluded cell site location as well. >> i was going to add that you would have to show that the categories of metadata that you were seeking was in fact relevant to the authorized investigation. >> mr. cole, you talked about the legislation. senator lee and i talked about to update the electronics communication privacy act. we want to require in criminal matters the government obtain a probable cause warrant to gain access to the contents of electronic communication that is stored by a third-party provider. section 215 of the usa patriot act requires the government to show only relevance to an authorized intelligence investigation in order to obtain records. i'm not talking about bulk collection, but the more

co-found and ceo of metadata solutions. mdso. sometimes you have to look at the total adjustable market, and make a decision that the market cap does not include the great opportunities and that's the case with metadata. stay with cramer. >>> coming up, market blockbuster? movie chain amc is set to roll out the red carpet on wall street next week for its public premier. should you book a ticket, or will this silver screen opportunity turn in to a box office flop? >>> what a decent day at the end of a pretty darn ugly week. let me give you something to look forward to, and i know @jim cramer on twitter, this is the most asked about stock. we're interactive, so we deliver. i'm talking about amc entertainment. it's the second largest movie theater chain in the united states, which is going public next week. remember, 2013 has been a bountiful, truly fabulous year for ipo's, and i don't think this one will be any different. according to ipo fund manager renaissance capital, so far this year we've had 219 initial public offerings this

judge richard leon ruled that the phone metadata collection is likely in violation of the constitution, specifically the fourth amendment prohibitions against unreasonable search and seizure. >> the judge wrote: >> in the ruling judge leon stayed the injunction, he wants to give the government time to appeal. for the time being the metadata collection conditions on, there's a ruling that the government will defend on appeal. >> the white house deferred action to the department of justice. they put out a statement, saying they have seen the court ruling, they are studying it: >> this is the secret court in the center the of the controversy, that hears appeals when the intelligence community wants to go for warrants and other tools to look into potential terrorist or security threats, they go to the court, and the department of justice points out on 35 separate occasions they authorised just the sort of telephonic metadata collection that the court addressed today. now, the man at the center of this controversy, edward snowden, has released a statement that reads in part: >> there'll be

where is that wrong. >> no this is metadata only. okay, let's say this, is metadata. the to from and time of the call. it is not content itself. nsa has no ability to go back and look at a previous conversation. they are not collecting that. let me make this very cllar. if they want to collect -- melissa: i don't know that is true. when they brought in the head of the nsa -- >> do know that is true. melissa: the head of nsa lied in front of congress when he testifying. they said are you listening to the calls, do you have the ability? i wish i had hits name in front of me and he said no, we're not authorized to do that but he didn't say we didn't do it. >> that's true. melissa: he didn't say we didn't do it, can't do it. he said that is not our mission. >> capability to do it, doesn't mean they are doing. i can tell you how the procedure actually works. i have done it. >> first of all, i understand what you're saying, john, there is wo points to all this. this is packized data. metadata and information is out there. i disagree, the district court, the judge recognized

s bulk metadata collection actually stopped an imminent attack the u.s. president could not identify one instance or at least he did not give one example to the journalists that were asking him u.s. officials have for many years asked americans to sacrifice some of their privacy in the name of security but so far no top u.s. official can mention any danger imminent danger that's been thwarted through the collection of everyone's. personal information that star line privacy and new ways of protecting data have generated unprecedented global interest in a hackers conference which started out as a small ai to get together the chaos communication congress is now underway in hamburg an artist peter oliver is there perhaps the most anticipated speech this year's calles communication conference was the keynote address by journalist and political commentator glenn greenwald he delivered his keynote speech by videophone to a packed out auditorium here in albuquerque and which he praised edward snowden for the work that he's done and also called on those government

s bulk metadata collection actually stopped an imminent attack the u.s. president could not identify one instance or at least he did not give one example to the journalists that were asking him now u.s. officials have for many years asked americans to sacrifice some of their privacy in the name of security but so far no top u.s. official can mention any danger imminent danger that's been thwarted through the collection of everyone's personal information. journalist glenn greenwald who's been channeling revelation tremendous a whistleblower edward snowden lashed out at the mainstream media turning a blind eye to the government's violations. conference in germany peter all over was in hamburg for the international gathering. perhaps the most anticipated speech of this year's calles communication conference was the keynote address by journalist and political commentator glenn greenwald he delivered his keynote speech by videophone to a packed out auditorium here in albuquerque and which he praised edward snowden for the work that he's done and also called on

is very controversial metadata program the u.s. president barack obama was asked to identify any specific instance in which analysis of the n.s.a.'s bulk metadata collection actually stopped an imminent attack the u.s. president could not identify one instance or at least he did not give one example to the journalists that were asking him u.s. officials have for many years asked americans to sacrifice some of their privacy in the name of security but so far no top u.s. official can mention any danger imminent danger that's been thwarted through the collection of everyone's personal information well this is journalist glenn greenwald who's been channeling revelations from n.s.a. whistleblower edward snowden of course to the mainstream maybe even turning a blind dog to the government's violations he made a keynote speech should a haikus come from germany. who was in the forest for the. gathering. perhaps the most anticipated speech of this year's calles communication conference was the keynote address point journalist and political c

s bulk metadata collection actually stopped an imminent attack the u.s. president could not identify one instance or at least he did not give one example to the journalists that were asking him u.s. officials have for many years asked americans to sacrifice some of their privacy in the name of security but so far no top u.s. official can mention any danger imminent danger that's been thwarted through the collection of everyone's personal information. to online privacy and new ways of protecting data have generated global unprecedented interest in a hackers conference which started out as a small get together and let's talk now with peter all over who's there for us hello to you peter so do tell us what's come out of the conference so far. well here at the thirtieth year of the chaos communication conference here in hamburg we've heard the first major speech the main speech on day one was by the journalist and political commentator glenn greenwald he of course worked so closely to with edward snowden to get those those leaks that snowden took from the n.s.

co-found and ceo of metadata solutions.ometimes you have to look at the total aaddress of a market and revenue growth and make a decision that the company's market cap does not include all the great opportunities, and that's the case with metadata. stay with cramer. >> coming up, market blockbuster? movie chain amc is set to roll out the red carpet on wall street next week for its public premier. should you book a ticket or will this silver screen opportunity turn into a box office flop? ya know, with new fedex one rate you can fill that box and pay one flat rate. how naughty was he? oh boy... [ male announcer ] fedex one rate. simple, flat rate shipping with the reliability of fedex. [ male announcer ] fedex one rate. the united states population is going to grow by over 90 ovemillion people,ears and almost all that growth is going to be in cities. what's the healthiest and best way for them to grow so that they really become cauldrons of prosperity and cities of opportunity? what we have found is that if that family is mo

co-found and ceo of metadata solutions. mdso.etimes you have to look at the total adjustable market, and make a decision that the market cap does not include the great opportunities and that's the case with metadata. stay with cramer. >>> coming up, market blockbuster. movie chain amc is set to roll out the red carpet on wall street next week for its public premeemplt should you book a ticket, or will this silver screen opportunity turn in to a box office flop? every day we're working to be an even better company - and to keep our commitments. and we've made a big commitment to america. bp supports nearly 250,000 jobs here. through all of our energy operations, we invest more in the u.s. than any other place in the world. in fact, we've invested over $55 billion here in the last five years - making bp america's largest energy investor. our commitment has never been stronger. ♪ ♪ ♪ i wanna spread a little love this year ♪ [ male announcer ] this december, remember: provocative design and exacting precision come together in one pow

and we heard general keith alexander again defend metadata is not being such a big deal. up there in canada metadata is still a really big deal just like it is here isn't that right. absolutely i mean we joined with the civil liberties association recently and launching their lawsuit against the government which is basically saying that collecting our method data and that's our sensitive private information to be clear that's what it is that collecting that information on law abiding canadians is unconstitutional so absolutely people are concerned up here in the government going to need to answer on that and listen you know metadata tells you can tell authorities where you are where you're going who you're friends with all kinds of sensitive information about your relationships so i think it's absolutely crucial that there be checks and balances on that kind of information collection and store and storage that was shot head batar executive director of the bill of rights fence committee here in d.c. and steve anderson executive director of open media in vancouver thank you

>> but you have to do a lot of work -- it's metadata. >> that's not correct. in order to -- the president assured us, and he was correct, that no one is listening in on americans' phone calls. >> he also denied this program existed before evidence of it came out and proved he was -- >> -- >> the administration. >> there's three different levels. no one is listening in on the content of phone calls. this massive information is being collected. it can't be queried without a reasonable suspicion, but the people who determined right now whether that's a reasonable suspicion are 22 people at the nsa. what this report says -- >> and a secret court. >> no, an nsa court. this report says in order to query that database, to figure out who your web is, that that like other things should go to -- you're i'm going to call it a responsible outside body, which is better than having the government spies deciding for themes what the rule is. >> you're saying i don't have a strong view. clearing querying the data base is querying a number and seeing the pattern of connections

date, how many times, and how long, that's metadata. >> reporter: in a 68-page ruling, judge richard leon said the government surveillance program was almost orwellian. and said i have little doubt that the author of our constitution james madison would be aghast at what the judge said amounts to an unreasonable such.

the nsa gathered metadata and logs every phone number dialed by u.s. phone customers, and dumps it into an enormous database. so much data the nsa is building a huge new facility to store it all. >> the purpose of these programs and the reason we use secrecy is not to hide it from the american people. not to hide it from you, but to hide it from those who walk among you who are trying to kill you. >> reporter: the nsa says it checks the database only when it has a terrorism lead tied to a specific phone number. but federal judge richard leon today called all that metadata gathering indiscriminate and arbitrary invasion of privacy. i am not convinced, he said, the nsa database has ever truly served the purpose of rapidly identifying terrorists. he questioned the relevance of a 1979 supreme court ruling relied on by the government that said phone customers have no privacy interest in their calling records. the judge said that's been eclipsed by technology in what he called a cell phone-centric lifestyle. >> it's ultimately going to be a decision for the

that they will suffer irreparable harm absent collimator injunctive relief ruling applies to the metadata collected from phone calls that take place from or within the u.s. judge leon also said the department of justice failed to demonstrate how collecting . data actually warrants terror plots joining me now to talk about this is rachel levinson wildman counsel to the brennan center is a liberty and national security program rachel thank you so much for joining me so let's start off by talking about this ruling how important how long your mental is it this is a really important ruling this is a ruling that says that the justification that the government has been using that collecting this huge quantity of information about americans phone calls is no different from collecting small amounts of information on a very targeted person and it doesn't i understand it and i say originally tried to say that this metadata is protected under previous laws i think were made back in the seventy's or late sixty's but this judge ruled that that's not the case right so what the n.s.a. has relied on what

nsa, by the director of national intelligence about how much data is being collected on america, metadata, whatever wah want to call it. do you feel that there's been any either misleading, willful or otherwise about the extent of that? >> i know as the chairman of the house intelligence committee we have had this information. we have been briefed on it we've had an opportunity to ask questions on it i supported these programs. we had some differences. we worked them out. were there problems that we found, yes.

s bulk phone metadata collection program suggesting she may be open to reforming it after all. this program in conjunction with other programs helps keep this nation safe i'm not saying it's indispensable but i'm saying that

in this case, metadata is the way of knowing where those books are in the library and a way of focusingur collection the same our allies do to look at where are the bad books. from our perspective, from the national security agency's perspective, what we do is get great insight into the bad actors overseas. >> your response to that, sascha meinrath? >> first, it is a failed metaphor, for sure, but surly, this is a case where they are scrambling to find justification for or in essence, criminalizing everyone. i that i mean, when you're doing active search and seizure of personal information -- let's be clear, metadata is still issatile information -- still personal information. what you have in essence done is said, we are crafting a dragnet where we assume the guilt of everyone. what yesterday's court ruling really demonstrated is that that is unacceptable. you must have reasonable cause to be collecting this, there must be worn's issued, there must be a presumption of guilt. an assumption there some reason to collect individual personal information about citizens and residents in the u

it's simply the fact that your metadata is not yours. it belongs to the third party. >> i think someone should file a lawsuit against amazon and american express on exactly the same basis. every day of the week we all convey enormous amounts of privacy to these web retailers, and nobody seems to complain.that. in fact there's much more intrusive -- >> the argue wouldn't be made, that's not the government. they don't have police powers. amazon and american express don't have police power. >> the issue is not just the government doing it. people worry about what will we done with the information, and given the story of target stores, you're information is in more danger in the private sector. >> the nsa has no police powers. just gathering reames of information, for possible clues that they would pass on -- say, someone is calling from pakistan a known terrorist is calling a number in utah, ten times, in a span of two weeks. they pass that on to the fbi which would look into it. get awater to -- >> have to get a warrant to do that. >> yes,

you said the so-called metadata phone base was not essential in stopping attacks.more than decade long this has been in effect, did you find that it stopped any terrorist attack? >> so we had people including people who have been in the cia for 30 years and richard clarke who is a senior counterterrorism adviser in our group, and when we dug into that and looked at more than 50 cases where these databases were supposed to be used, we found some of the other databases were essential but the phone metadata base we did not find it essential to preventing any attack. >> so after all of this that you've heard, did that -- about this before you got into looking at it, did that surprise you that, like, no terrorist attack has been stopped by what proved to be a pretty controversial program? >> well, i think i tried to go into this with an open mind on the facts. we got very classified briefings. we were able to dig around wherever we asked for with the agencies. and i'd say it was somewhat sprising but i think in the intelligence world there's an understandable idea that

the almost orwellian technology to store the metadata is unlike anything that could have been conceived of in 1979. notion that the government could collect similar data on hundreds of millions of people and retain that data for five-year period updating it with new data every day in perpetuated was it best in 1979, the stuff of science fix. americans, general, are legitimately alarmed by the scope and stature of this collection, retention and storage. >> our history as a people allow we be concerned about this. but our concerns should be governed. our thinking should be focused on the facts of the case not the emotion of the case. again, what happens to the data. judge leon ignored precedent, ignored smith versus maryland the case that you cited. the 15 judges on 30 occasions that upheld the lawfulness of this. then judge pauly in the 7th district of new york within a week issued another warning saying -- saying that this was inherently constitutional. and judge pauly relied on precedent. judge leon relied on exclamation points throughout his judgment not precedent. >> also said this i

some 54 different attacks thwarted just by our business record metadata collection. another program that-- program that we use to collect information has been shared with our allies and stopped terrorist attacks in germany. >> warner: and you know that to be the case. >> i absolutely know that to be the case. and here's the good news. now so do they. and so sometimes the politicians were saying this and not realizing that something else was going on and sharing information and cooperation. >> warner: as the big u.s. internet giants just said this week, i mean yahoo! and google and facebook, the perception in europe now is that doing business with our companies isn't safe. and they can't trust us. and it's hurting their business. is this something the president has to do something to address to redress and what could he do? >> i think we lost the pr war on the frontment but it's really important to understand that, again, france just passed a law to make it easier to go after servers in their own country. all of the european union now is saying well, maybe we should h