miami, the miami book festival. >> that's a good one. >> also with us, staff writer at "the atlantic," tom nichols. we have a lot to talk with him about, russia. he has an incredible piece about his cat. >> tom, i think the next james bond movie -- >> keep things moving. >> we had "the spy who loved me." ian fleming's family is going to look at your "atlantic" article with "the cat who saved me." >> so beautiful. that's carla. >> this is a beautiful story. we don't usually do cat stories here, i'm not going to lie. >> we should do more. >> i read it in "the atlantic," tom, and it was moving on so many fronts. tell us about the cat who literally saved your life. >> um, well, twice, really. i first met her 15, almost 15 years ago, and i was pretty down in the dumps, as i say in the story. i was divorced. i was broke. i was, you know, living in a kind of walk-up down by the waterfront. she was in the window of the local veterinary office. >> i'm going to start crying. >> tom, come on. we have to do the full -- >> don't stop. >> you were drinking too much. >> oh, my gosh. >> you were out of control. >> oh, yeah. >> you were a wreck. >> i was drinking too much, just totally in my cups. it was a bad time in my life. i was drinking a lot. depressed. you know, just come out of both a marriage and a relationship after with some very nice people but it hadn't worked out. i was like, you know, you get to the point where you say, you know, you sort of want to give up and kind of trudge through the day. here was this cat as i walked by every day, and she sort of stared at me. i stared at her. i thought, i can't take care of a cat, can't even take care of myself. how am i going to take care of this cat? i was walking with a friend, and he said, enough of this. get the cat. i went in there, and i picked her up. she kind of looked at me and was like, what took you so long? >> aw. >> she was kind with this expectant look. duffus, you walked by 50 times. >> look at her. >> i took her home. she started to kind of add structure to my life. she'd get me up in the morning. at night, you know, i'd be trying to work, and she'd flop over my key board and say, no more pity parties. we're going to go watch tv now. over time, i kind of got -- she was really important to me, kind of getting out of that terrible situation i was in. she'd tell you if she was here, it was all her. she's that kind of cat. >> well, it was. >> well, and i met my next wife and started, you know, to get on with life, and the cat was always there. she had a real presence. this was a cat who had command of a room when she walked in. then came many years later when my house caught on fire. like a dog, carla had dog-like characteristics. she'd be upset to hear that, but she was running upstairs, saying, wake up, and got us out of bed. >> oh, my god. >> stayed right there. cats usually die in fires because they hide. this cat just came upstairs and said, let's go. out of bed. something is wrong. the fire department told us that that probably, the extra 15 minutes probably saved the house and maybe saved our lives because the fire had been trapped below a floor and hadn't tripped the fire alarms. the cat knew it before anybody else. you know, we got her out and went to a hotel. she thought that was awesome, living in a hotel. that was her favorite thing. you know, she just was -- she became my little co-author and colleague, kind of sitting on my desk every night. became my wife's best pal. when we lost her, it was hard. even as i was coming into my office to do this segment, i thought i caught her out of the corner of my eye. i looked to where she usually sleeps, and still not used to her not being there. >> i'm not going to make it through the show. i can't. >> mika is weeping. >> i love this. what a beautiful piece. what a great story. i'm happy for you, but i miss carla for you. >> yeah. >> incredible, tom. >> it's been hard, you know, she's a part of your life every day. suddenly, you know, she's gone. i mean, in a way, it is harder, in some ways, than losing a person because you don't see other people every day. our life is very different now that she's gone. we really miss her. >> well, you can catch tom's piece in "the atlantic." "the cat who saved me," it's incredible. thank you for sharing that with us and showing us a whole side of you that perhaps our viewers haven't seen. we're now going to tap into your knowledge. >> tom, if you ever need any other cats to fill the void -- >> my cats are not for you, tom. >> mika has 47. >> can i show your pictures? there's meatball. fabulous. he is fabulous. a little like carla. there is also blue. >> meatball is a dog. >> there's gray. >> meatball is proud of being a dog. >> yeah. meatball is our buddy. >> we'll have more cats in our life. there will be other cats one day, but we're not ready yet. >> me, too. >> you know, though, as patrick moynihan said, yes, we will have other cats in our life again, but we will never be young again. isn't that what he said? >> almost, yeah. >> tom, you're the best. >> yes. >>> we're going to tap into your knowledge about russia. russia is using disinformation videos to smear president biden ahead of the november election. "the new york times" highlights one video circulating on social media claiming to tell the story of an internet troll farm in kyiv targeting the american election. a woman, quote, offers a first-person account of how she and her colleagues initially worked in support of president volodymyr zelenskyy of ukraine, then, she says, after a visit by mysterious americans who were, quote, probably cia, the group began sending messages to american audiences in support of president biden. we were told our new target was the united states of america, especially the upcoming elections, the woman in the video says. "long story short, we were asked to do everything to prevent donald trump from winning the elections." "the times" notes the video is fake, part of an effort to cloud the political debate ahead of the u.s. elections. u.s. officials tell the paper the video is consistent with russian disinformation operations as internet warriors aligned with russia appear to be honing their strategy. such videos were one of the most immediate threats. according to "the times," russian operatives are leaning into videos, many of them that falsely purport to be made by independent journalists or whistleblowers. the videos posted to social media or blog posts are most likely to spread beyond the conspiracies of america and become mainstream discourse. >> tom, one of the maddening things out there, people talking about the russian hoax. they keep talking about the russian hoax. the russians never tried to influence our elections. it's all, you know, this, that, or the other. you actually have the chairman of the house gop armed services committee, intel committee, and foreign affairs committee all saying that russian disinformation is being spread on the house floor by republican members. here we have more reporting of what has never really stopped. that is, vladimir putin and russia trying to help donald trump get elected again. i mean, hoax? there is no hoax. the propaganda is going not only on media sources now, putin has now figured out a way to use house gop members to spread russia's lies. >> and, in part, you know, the americans -- the american public is a willing accomplice here. when this shows up on the internet or, you know, facebook or youtube, wherever people get it, you know, i'm asked, what can they do about this? i say, stop getting your news there. it's kind of like eating junk food all day. there's a really simple answer to that. stop having milk shakes for breakfast. people don't want to do that. one thing the russians really understand about us is that americans are easily bored and we love a good story. we love this stuff. we eat it up. the republicans in congress, i think, know exactly what they're doing because it is convenient to them and gives them a good narrative to say, you know, the classic, "well, i'm just asking questions," kind of pose. it is ready-made, convenient propaganda for them. in the end, the problem with the russian attack on america is how much the americans really do welcome it and because we have an open system of government, because we have a free press, we're defenseless against stopping any of it. it has to be on each one of us to decide we're not getting our information there. i don't have a lot of hope that's going to happen. >> jen, you sadly know a thing or two about the impact of russian disinformation campaigns. in 2016. we had senator warner from virginia saying he is more worried about election interference this time around even than 2020. he thinks we're less prepared. it could be russia, china, other places, as well. what would the advice be to the biden campaign? how can they learn from this, combat this? >> the hardest thing to combat in 2016 was no one believed us. even after there had been reporting on what russia was doing in the post, we'd go to the press and say, you know, we think a lot of this is coming from russia. it was just so fantastic for everyone, that they couldn't really -- you know, they couldn't appreciate that that's what was really happening. now, people do know that. >> jen, can i -- >> it is easier to -- >> can i read this for you and then you continue? >> yeah. >> it's not just "the washington post." the gop senate intel report that was run by marco rubio, they wrote this in 2017. the trump campaign chairman manafort was, quote, a grave counterintelligence threat that made the campaign susceptible to malign russia influence. marco rubio's committee said russia presented a grave counterintelligence threat. that was marco rubio and the republicans. yet, people still want to write op-eds on "the wall street journal" editorial page talking about russia hoax. marco rubio talked about russia presented, by this disinformation -- let me say it again -- quote, a grave counterintelligence threat. >> they had -- in '16, "the post" did a good story in june of '16 to say, you know, where they thought a lot of this was coming from. u.s. administration officials on background. of course, on october 7th, 2016, we had the declaration from the obama administration that russia was behind the hacks. we later had an intelligence estimate that it was not just the russians behind this but trying to help donald trump win. that was all during the obama administration. it was too fantastic for people to appreciate. now, we've had eight years of this, and it is -- and i think at least even though it is more widespread, when you say you can't trust that, you know, it could be from the russians, it leaves people to understand now that's something they have to look out for. you have to call out lies immediately and right away and point them out to people. people have to be better judges of what they're reading. >> that's a lot to ask for. >> it is. >> eddie, people have to be aware of this. we listened to jen, which is factual. it happened. it impacted a presidential election. it is not just russia now. there's a tsunami of misinformation out there. russia, china, various other countries, all aimed at our increasingly fragile democracy. >> right. >> part of what you do for a liing is teach, and teach of the culture of the country today. this is a potential legal threat to our country. >> absolutely. you know, in so many ways, people are kind of post fact in some ways. they want to affirm their opinions. in some ways, this is also echoing something tom said, right? america's appetite for this drives it. stop drinking milk shakes for breakfast, show some of us like it. >> smoothies. >> what makes it successful, it is actually tapping into a set of positions and beliefs that many americans hold. then they're exploiting it and amplifying it. one of the questions we have to ask ourselves is not only, are they hacking and doing the kind of concrete work, but why is it so effective? >> eddie, they don't have to anymore. all they have to do is get the information on the chinese communist party's app. which, of course, is tiktok. the chinese communist party runs that app. they make sure the algorithms are run in a way to spread disinformation into america. if you don't believe it, talk about the uighurs. talk about human suffering in hong kong. talk about human rights abuses in china. see how much of a pickup that gets on tiktok. they kill it. but if you spread disinformation about joe biden, oh, russian disinformation, oh, you've got the russians and the communist chinese running rough shot across america. everybody is against it, except donald trump. who now supports tiktok. >> right. for his own interests, right? i think that all makes sense to me, joe. part of what i'm trying to wrap my mind around is the way in why it is effective. it is effective, of course, for all the reasons you've just laid out. but it is also exploiting divisions, right? there is a kind of dispositional orientation to the misinformation that allows it to take root. i think, how do we address both ends of it? that's what the russians and the chinese are doing and what we are susceptible to, if that makes sense. >> you know, there's so much stupidity out there that is pedaled by people. there are two great examples. there is a guy that used to be in mumford and sons, who debated at oxford union. debated nancy pelosi. when he was pushed into a corner, he just talked about joe biden's severe dementia. such severe dementia, he can hardly operate. it's a lie. it is a complete, total lie. yet, that's pushed, and it is pushed by these third parties. i mean, you have other lies about how great russia is. tucker carlson running around saying, oh, my god, look at the grocery -- it is a worker's paradise. he sounded like a guy who defected to the soviet union in '62. he pushes that. he pedals that russian disinformation actively. >> yeah, and giving it a large platform. not as large as he had on cable but still does. aaron rodgers drafted to the mission this week. we should note, there is vladimir putin today? he's in beijing, meeting with xi jinping. >> wow. >> this is the alliance against democracies. we don't know if this is a topic of conversation, but certainly, their greater interests are making the united states as weak as possible. >> mike, couple quick things. >> if you think about it, at least me, if you think about it, the massive amount of disinformation that's out there is not surprising. what's more upsetting than that, at least to me, and i'm wondering about you, jen, having been through it firsthand, is the appetite for it that's out there in this country. >> well, it is an appetite for it and the appetite in the press to, you know, latch onto it, right? that is the -- and everyone is going to have to take responsibility for pushing back on it. the press, i mean, i would rather take more with an aware press than what we had in '16, where everyone accepted what they saw on twitter as coming from a real person. >> tom nichols, really quickly before we leave, that meeting in beijing between vladimir putin and president xi, there's a reason for both of those men to be scared of, despite the lies, the constant lies, there's reason for both of those men is that strategically to be scared of joe biden's re-election. joe biden has pushed through the ukraine aid. despite the delays of mike johnson and donald trump causing the ukrainians a lot of problem, the money finally got through because of joe biden's insistence. when you look at china, look at "the new york times" piece earlier this week, we've been talking about it an awful lot, but you look at the fact that joe biden is hemming china in. when it comes to chinese aggression in the south sea, the south china sea, when it comes from just an arc, from guam, the philippines, down to australia, all around, the chinese are not able to expand because of joe biden's strategic moves. so xi and vladimir putin, damn straight they want to spread disinformation on tiktok through xi because they don't want joe biden to get re-elected again. donald trump is an easy mark, and they know it. >> yeah. i mean, this is going to sound strange, you and i both being former republicans, but i will say that in foreign policy, i think in a lot of ways, but in foreign policy, biden's first term has been as consequential as reagan's first term. >> agreed. >> there is a reagan almost successful foreign policy going here. i know some folks will think that is probably a bad thing, but i mean in the sense of rallying allies, containing the russians, warning off the chinese. >> yeah. >> it has been done with this quiet and methodical approach to diplomacy that i think has been really effective. it should tell people something, that the two countries who wish us the most ill, our biggest competitor and biggest dedicated enemy would love to see donald trump return to the white house. i mean, that should give people pause, i think. >> it should. staff writer for "the atlantic," tom nichols. thank you for your piece on carla the cat. cheers to carla for saving tom, and now we have him as part of the "morning joe" family, thanks to carla. >> there we go. >> tom has two other must-reads, up now for the magazine. one on how autocracies are winning the information war. another entitled, "a failure of imagination about trump." be sure to check those out, as well. thank you, tom. >>> still ahead on "morning joe," michael cohen will be back on the stand this morning as part of donald trump's criminal hush money trial. we'll go live to the courthouse for a preview of what to expect. >>> first, a democratic senator and republican governor are teaming up to tackle what they call our nation's happiness deficit. nbc's julie tsirkin spoke with the bipartisan duo and joins us next with that interview. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back. if you have this... consider adding this. an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. medicare supplement plans help by paying some of what medicare doesn't... and let you see any doctor. any specialist. anywhere in the u.s. who accepts medicare patients. so if you have this... consider adding this. call unitedhealthcare today for your free decision guide. ♪ when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd things changed for me. breztri gave me better breathing, symptom improvement, and reduced flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, 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entire society is withdrawing from each other. i reached out to governor cox about a year ago to just understand the steps he had been taking in utah to try to build a more connected community, to try to figure out why utah is a place with really high social capital, with people who feel maybe a little more connected into the community than in other parts of the country. to see if there was work we could do together. >> why should lawmakers, governors, elected officials, put happiness first and foremost when they're thinking about policy? >> well, it is right there in the declaration of independence. human beings, americans, have a right to pursue happiness. you know, government can't deliver the last mile of happiness, right? that's up to everybody individually to figure out. but i think we are in charge of trying to set rules and laws and norms that give people a better shot at happiness. if you get beyond the fights over abortion or immigration or guns even, you might be able to find a lot more common agreement between the right and the left on the things that are actually most directly relevant to how people find happiness, connection, connection into neighbors, into family, into the common good. >> look, i agree that it's not government's job to make people's happy, but it is government's job to protect those rights that we've been given from on high, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. sometimes, government actually can make people less happy or can make it more difficult for them to pursue happiness. >> what motivated you to put legislation in place, to basically force social media companies to bar children under the age of 18 from accessing their app? >> we now have several studies of schools that have banned cell phones and saw reductions in problems with bullying, self-harm, anxiety, raising test scores. all of the science and data is showing us that this is a major cause of that. so this is one area where government, i think, can appropriately intervene. >> why do you think loneiness plays a factor in people who engage in self-harm, harm to others, gun violence? >> listen, for anyone to carry out an act of epic level violence, you have to be fundamentally disconnected from your community. and we are just seeing more and more young people who feel like they don't belong. like they are outsiders. some of those then choose to take that frustration, that anxiety into their own hands and engage in these absolutely terrible and despicable acts of violence. >> can you share your experiences quickly here with self-isolation, with loneliness yourselves? >> my parents got divorced when i was 10, and that was a really hard and dark time for me. i went through a period of time where i thought the world would be a better place if i wasn't in it. i'm so grateful that i had institutions and community and people around me that cared about me in that dark time. so that's something i felt very personally that has kind of driven me to this work from the very beginning. >> there's no doubt that as a parent, i have often felt very alone, right? almost every parent out there has had a real sense of aloneness in a world that is changing very fast, with kids that are dealing with challenges, whether it be the risk of violence at school, whether it be social media, whether it be bullying online, that are things very unfamiliar to us, having not had to have gone through those. >> mika, these are powerful people, elected officials, who really can relate with so many americans in their personal experiences of self-isolation, of loneliness. you heard them talk about different factors, from social media, later in the interview they talked about lack of housing, affordable housing, the economy. so many different factors that is impacting why americans are feeling more alone than ever, according to studies. the one thing that the two officials agree on is government has a role here to play in legislating around this issue. they did say that this is not a problem where they already have a solution prescribed. they're sitting down, having roundtables, listening to experts, everyday americans, before they decide what role exactly government should play here. certainly, a very interesting topic and adventure these two are partnering on. >> it is a huge issue. i'm so glad they're doing this. nbc news congressional correspondent julie tsirkin, thank you for bringing it to us. appreciate it. >>> coming up on "morning joe," our next guest is setting the record straight, reporting on the real story of how musician rasz cass elliot died. it was not the ham sandwich. we'll have more on the mamas and the papas singer when "morning joe" returns. ♪ you've got to make your own kind of music ♪ ♪ sing your own special song make your own kind of music ♪ ♪ even if nobody else sings along ♪ [ applause ] >> oh, baby, baby, baby. cut and print. you nailed that take, mama cass. >> you really think so, mitch? >> mitch lester knows a hit when he hears one, baby. you agree, record label people? >> we're anticipating major air play. >> the deejays are already calling. >> so are the late night shows. >> oh, this song is going to be everywhere, mama. and everybody is going to forget about it for a long, long time. >> oh. oh, no, really? >> oh, yeah, yeah, baby. but in about 40, 50 years, i think it is going to start showing up in a bunch of movies, baby. >> wow. movies. eatment. immunotherapies work with your immune system to attack cancer. but opdivo plus yervoy is the first combination of 2 immunotherapies for adults newly diagnosed with non-small cell lung cancer that has spread, tests positive for pd-l1, and does not have an abnormal egfr or alk gene. opdivo plus yervoy is not chemotherapy, it works differently. it helps your immune system fight cancer in 2 different ways. opdivo and yervoy can cause your immune system to harm healthy parts of your body during and after treatment. these problems can be severe and lead 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"cass elliot's death spawned a horrible myth. she deserves better." >> she does. >> i learned a lot from your piece, especially about who started the rumor, which is the most fascinating part of all. i'll start with taylor swift, though. listen, i'm a rock guy. i have my pantheon. >> we all know. >> chuck berry. >> yeah. >> buddy holly. little richard, the beatles, the beach boys, whatever. you go all the way through nirvana. elvis costello. but taylor swift is in that pantheon. >> wow. >> she's extraordinary. >> wow. >> listen, she is extraordinary, next level as a singer/songwriter/performer. that said, i will say -- >> "tortured poets department." >> you'll get in trouble. >> six songs in, i was like, okay, what's next? >> what are you doing? >> she's done this before. >> yeah. >> you know, when you are this big and this powerful and this billionaire, you're so massive, it's kind of hard to still be doing five albums in, songs about boyfriends that dropped you and made you sad. >> i think more the issue is a lot of the songs just sound similar to me. again, it's terrifying to speak critically of taylor swift. i know, controversial. >> they're going to come for you. >> i'm just going to move over here. >> i know. >> outside of the studio, they'll come for you. >> she is an extraordinary lyricist. >> absolutely. >> extraordinary songwriter. extraordinary as far as sense of melody. >> is it bad? >> no, it's not that it's bad. it's a lot. i always thought about sinatra singing, what made him different from dean martin and everybody else is they do 60 minutes, 58 minutes, he went out and would do his 38 best minutes and got off stage. always leaving them wanting more. >> yes. >> taylor released even more music since then. i just think it is a lot. part of it just may be, and i mean this, she's so gifted, she's so talented and has so many songs, she wants the world to hear. we get that. but, again, you said it might be because maybe she's still using the same producer, and maybe she needs a new break. >> yeah, i would love to see her switch it up a bit. i love that frank sinatra bit you said. i think that's, you know, something we could all learn from. >> me especially, no question. >> what about beyonce's country album, want to go on the record about that? >> that record, first of all, i was glad i didn't have to review it the day of. >> oh, my gosh. >> you know, the swifties are enough for one critic. >> yes. >> i really -- that's another really sprawling, big album. >> exactly. >> i appreciate the variety on the record. that one is really -- >> very tactful, it is very sprawling. >> it is. >> not what i expected. it was not ray charles' country album. >> no, but it is growing on me. >> how much time did you have to do the taylor review? >> few days. >> right. the craziest thing to me was the rush of critics to try to, like, absorb the record, the size of it, and spit stuff out. it's like, we don't turn to music criticism as if it is breaking news, like everyone has a hot take on this. how about giving the critics a chance to listen. it's a big record. there are a lot of love tracks to listen to. give everybody time to absorb it before we make them write about it. >> taylor swift still in the rock pantheon as far as i'm concerned. you don't -- you know, the beatles put out -- we'll talk about it in a second -- "let it be." it wasn't abbey road, but i'm still listening to it 800 years later because it is the fricken beatles and they're better than everybody, even when. >> narrator: yes, please. >> they're not at the best. >>> mama cass. >> yes. >> extraordinary singer. >> yeah. >> a great actress. she knew how to -- unfortunately, she was fat shamed, written into her jokes. yet, the talent, this woman was a beautiful voice, beautiful talent. she left this beautiful music. when you talk about mama cass, immediately, the lie about her choking on a ham sandwich is the first thing that people always talk about. you went into that lie and explained what really happened. >> yeah. i mean, i wanted to do two things. one was figure out the source of this rumor and what actually happened. i also wanted to celebrate her life and her work, which i think gets overshadowed by this very tawdry joke about her. >> mean. >> it is mean. it is cruel. you know, it is what we would call today fat phobic, but we didn't have that language when she, you know, when famous. she dealt with a lot. the true story is less salacious. in some sense, it's just that her heart gave out. she had a heart attack at age 32. she had battled substance abuse issues. she was on all sorts of crash diets since she was a young teenager. >> she was tortured. >> yeah. >> tortured. >> the lie about the ham sandwich came from within, didn't it? >> it was her manager is a friend of hers who, the friend, sue cameron, i got to speak with for my piece, and she was a journalist who was also a friend of cass. she said that they wanted to protect her because they didn't want this sense of that she had had a drug problem or something like that. they thought that was more salacious than -- >> choking on a ham sandwich. >> -- the cartoonish rumor. over time, it's come to eclipse a lot of lovely things about her life. >> what was the relationship with john philips in that group? was it a contentious relationship, as much as everyone thought? >> i think it was, yes. he was very reluctant to even let her join the group in the beginning because of the way she looked, which was so cruel. >> even after hearing her sing? >> he couldn't get past that until he was forced. everyone else in the band and around the group was like, come on. he envisioned them as a trio initially, which, you know, is hard to imagine now. her voice really is the linchpin of the sound. it's so sound and distinct. >> incredible. >> yeah. >> john heilemann, let's do a quick -- for people that may not be aware of her work, of course, "monday monday" and "california dreaming," i absolutely love. i saw her again last night, two or three others that are just classics, "go where you want to go. " you hear her voice. from where you are from, it is california pop 1967/'67. >> i was thinking about, you know, she was not only an incredible artist but an amazing social connector. lindsey, you can talk about this. she was the heart in a lot of ways of the scene. i remember when david crosby said that you couldn't find anybody who didn't like her. she was the -- she put people together. a lot of other groups were put together because she introduced people. including crosby and nash. >> i found out that she was the first person to sort of say, you know, david crosby and stephen sills were thinking of forming a group. she knew a new guy, graham nash, and she linked them up. she invited them over to her house the same day and sort of said, you guys need this high voice to sing with you. graham nash has said that she heard the sound of crosby, soules, and nash before anyone else did. remarkable thing. she was right. >> the voice, the lyrics, just the few songs that joe mentioned, is it outrageous to say that she, mamas and papas, but cass elliot, specifically, because of her voice, was one of the stamps of the decade of the 1960s? something you just remember. >> i think so. >> the imprint. >> certainly. >> for sure. >> certainly in california pop, along with the beach boys and doors, no doubt about it. >>> i want to move now to something that we've been reading articles about. john heilemann, something that fascinates me is, of course, the re-release on disney of "let it be." beatles recorded 1969. "let it be" came out in 1970. it was seen as a grim, grim death march toward the beatles' breakup. it also showed a band really at the end of their row, loathing each other in every way, sneering through takes. then peter jackson came out with "getback," and a remarkable thing happened. found out that john was a protective older brother to george saying to paul when nobody was listening except for the hidden microphone, come on, man, we beat him down every day, we got to help him out, for me what was so remarkable. see those images, lennon and the beatles went to see "let it be," and they left thinking, oh, we must -- then rio and paul talked about get back in '19. and they said, oh, my god, we loved each other. paul would be singing. he would be playing, staring at paul like, looking for affirmation and they locked eyes and you saw a love there that we didn't -- i think even paul mccartney forgot how much they loved each other during the breakup. >> yeah, and it's such a strange thing the way that the release of these records and the movie kind of messed with everyone's head. "let it be" wasn't the last thing they recorded. "abbey road" was the last thing the beatles recorded. all this stuff from "let it be" before they recorded abbey road. if you thought about the proper context it would change your whole view the way this band has gone out. >> for beatles fans, they thought this sad breakup, "let it be" was the last album, what they don't know, paul called george and said we want to do one more album. he said, oh, are you going to let me do my job or fighting all the time. they said, we want to go out strong. they produced the greatest album. >> peter jackson, again, you know, i haven't seen this one. >> this is "let it be". this is sort of reinvigorated "let it be." i'll say, it's still grim. it's still depressing. when you look at what peter jackson did, okay, this was a brilliant idea by paul. >> yes, totally. and i get this. even despite, even despite the grim mood around the studio what's captured in this movie, these songs are still the best and this movie is still as great as they ever be. >> it's pretty extraordinary. still worth a watch. any beatles takes? >> you reminded me of our radio show. >> can we get her off the show? >> the stones are touring right now. >> the stones ripped off the beatles for like ten years, the beatles were doing something and the stones ripped it off. >> what do you think the odds of anyone at this table moving the way mick jagger moves at his age. >> we had a radio show and asked anything about the beatles and he answered everything correctly for two hours. >> mika walked off when a guy called up and you're touring the philippines, ringo -- i cut him off. jimmy nichols played for ringo. >> too much. >> we have to talk, before we go on this sprawling segment, more sprawling then the taylor swift album -- we have to talk about a guy -- if you talked to musicians, especially indie musicians over the past 10, 15, 20 years said who got the best drum sound? who got the ethos of what they were trying to do. they would say steve albini, who passed away last week. >> the guy was brilliant. complicated. uncompromising. said a lot of really offensive things over the course of his career that he repented for. but made some incredible records. in '88 with thepixies. anywhere van ya hears it. kurt cobain said let's get albini come in. the letter he wrote to the band what he wanted in their relationship, i want to be paid like a plumber, he never took a producer credit, never took points on a record. he was still working at the age of 61. he's an incredibly uncompromising spirit and he was a mechanic and saw himself as that electric records still a working studio up until the day he died. >> he's very democratic. if you had a band and pay his rent, he wasn't a snob, he'd take you in, he'd do his best. pretty incredible. i thought without knowing producing or engineering, i said, this is the stripped down, this is -- whoever did this, they really get it. but steve albini a real force. >> yeah, and i think a death that's hitting the music community pretty hard and people, you know, are having sort of this personal resonance with this and to your point i think he was someone who really walked the walk of the indie and punk ethos. he did not want to take points, like producing royalties on the follow-up to never mind. imagine. >> he said the letters, if this album sells 3 million copies you can figure out. just fierce, uncompromising, such a great writer, funny ard smart. >> there's a phenomenal podcast on the anniversary of the album with steve, conan o'brien, chris. >> oh, my gosh. really great. >> thank you so much for coming on. >> thank you. >> come back. okay, still ahead, we'll go live to lower manhattan for donald trump's criminal hush money trial ahead of more testimony from trump's former fixer and attorney michael cohen. r and attorney michael cohen that would mean over a hundred million americans will lose protections for preexisting conditions president biden has protected the affordable care act and lowered health care costs for millions by $800 a year. now, he'll make those savings permanent. health care should be a basic right. folks, he's coming for your health care and we're not going to let it happen. [applause] i'm joe biden and i approve this message. >>> still ahead, 11th hour host stephanie ruhle joins us with her takeaways from her interview with republican senator mitt romney. we're back in one minute. we're back in one minute - [narrator] we just shipped our millionth monthly coffee subscription box so we're sending custom thank you gifts to our team. our custom ink rep is just as excited as we are and knows what great quality products to get. celebrate your milestones with custom gear. get started today at customink.com. why choose a sleep number smart bed? can i make my side softer? i like my side firmer. sleep number does that. now, save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, 0% interest for 36 months. shop now at sleepnumber.com >>> president biden challenged former president trump to two debates, and trump accepted. yeah. trump agreed to the debate. he said i'll be okay assuming it's okay with my parole officer. the first debate will be next month the earliest the presidential debate has ever been, and if we're being honest an early bird debate feels right for these guys. >> toe to toe. manno on mango. let's get ready to rumble. rumble, i've seen your rallies. i think you mean let's get ready to ramble. >> good morning, and welcome to morning joe, it's thursday, may 16th, and i just have to ask, question that alex asked, how is it not friday, guys? it's thursday i'm very grateful. i'm very grateful. >> we're close to friday. it's almost friday. >> no, no, we're not at friday. >> 24 hours it will be friday. >> lot to talk about today. >> we have the host of way too early, jonathan lemire. john heilmann. member of the new york times, steve ratner is up bright and early this morning. did he bring charts on this thursday? >> maybe he did, he comes in and he goes to the fenway -- >> the southwest wall. >> the southwest wall and he leaves and i take it personally after a while. >> i take it personally that i'm not invited to the big boys table. >> we have a lot to get to. the debates, my god, it's happening. >> i'm so excited. let's talk about real things, the daily news mike lupica, the most exciting knicks team debate. >> they did win two titles. knicks fans, the team they loved the most. fond of a couple of patrick ewing teams that made a run. jalen brunson has taken the city by storm. >> i'm cheering for the knicks, just because it's so exciting. you know what, it's going to end up being the nuggets and the celtics. >> here's thing, i'd say, lupica said that brunson a great playoff player. that's true. if i could do a good howard cosell, not since the day of walt "clyde" frazier. there's an electricity in the garden. i have never said it before, thank you, jimmy dolan, he gave all those years of disappointment, abuse, it's just made this moment that much sweeter. >> there you go. >> everybody has been so longing. the knicks fans have been in the desert so long, they're now, they can see the light. very exciting. >> through the dolan crap -- thank you so much for that. >> mara proving the poll of yesterday -- that every one of those polls skew press coverage for weeks to come of the newspaper of record, with collapsing polls, one siena poll. i hold the paper of record. fox news has their own poll out that shows deadlock. ipsos, biden ahead by four. am i saying biden is ahead by four? no, it's a deadlock, again this ipsos poll -- here's the new fox news polls, donald trump still ahead by one. joe biden picks up three. i'm always saying, the day after a siena poll, for six months, you have a lot to live for, four children, you know polls change, this trend -- >> lot of people who like democracy. >> sure enough the next day we'll be hit not by one, four, five polls that show that we're at deadlock. my point is, it skews press coverage for weeks to come. i'm not asking you to defend "the times chl" i'm saying it's draw. it's a draw right now. >> polls are but one data point. we think of them as the only measure of what's happening and they're often out of context. we're polling actually human beings here, that's imperfect. you saw in nevada, a notoriously difficult state to poll that biden was down the most and that may be the actual trend but the real shape of it is really hard to know because you're just getting a snapshot in time. the other thing here is it's hard to know when you have two people, two candidates for president who are really quite unpopular overall with the american public, how much of this people being polled right now, not super political. they may not like either of them but it's still may, they're not thinking about this necessarily a contest between two candidates. they're thinking, i don't like either of them. talk to me in five months. >> the whole idea it's going to and 13 points in nevada, i'll take any bet that it's close in nevada. before we get moving, inflation eases. stocks hit highs. most importantly, from at least the numbers i saw yesterday, grocery prices going down a bit and i'm telling you, three things really, especially for younger voters, grocery prices, gas and it's buying a home are being able to have a nice place to rent out, those are the three -- well, we're not even talking about a car. i mean, cars are crazy, we basically traded in all of our cars, we have a gray kia minivan and we got it because it's reliable and it's ten years, 100,000 miles and you don't have to go, do you have this part? yeah, we'll have this part in about eight months. i get in my gray minivan and i drive down the road like a boss. >> steve with his bentley. >> the rolls, he can't even use it. >> forget about the grey poupon cooler. it's crazy. >> crazy. >> not even fighting this anymore. >> thank you, john, for attacking my lifestyle. i like my bentley. >> that wasn't an attack. i'm jealous. >> i'll give you a ride in the bentley around the corner. >> go ahead, steve. >> you're teasing my appearance, we have good news on inflation and all the things you mentioned, food, energy, a lot of those prices are moderating. i'll show you some stuff about how consumer sentiment is closely tied to inflation and we know that's going to drive the election. you know, the realclear poll shows it's dead heat. >> again, my reaction is not too much to the times it's to the people who freak out disproportionately on the times and the times doing 15 stories on their polls. fox won't do 15 stories on their fox poll. morning consult. it's become this cottage industry for people on the other side of the chinese wall that maura is not on. she has nothing to do with this. don't direct any tweets to her. for people at home and it's important for them to kind of see what's behind the scenes, i have for six months, since people have been freaking out about biden's team, i'm telling you every time i go in and talk to anybody who's running the campaign, the big part of the campaign, i don't know what they're telling you and what they're telling other people. they're like, they act like people holding four aces. what about this, yeah, yeah. that looks really tough, yeah, boy, trump. they really -- >> is this a criticism in. >> no, they know something that i think a lot of us don't know and they look at numbers and they see where things are going, they have a theory when people realize that donald trump is going to be getting into the race things are going to start gelling better for him. they understand donald trump's numbers are way down in every way in fund-raising and they'll say -- no they're not. they're never going to catch joe biden. and as far as organization goes, anybody involved in a political campaign, if you're tearing up stakes in april and may, you're not going to put them back down in july and august, donald trump is going to be pounded on the ground. the bietden people feel great about it. they have about a thousand clips of donald trump that every day they're like, which one are we going to use today? it makes him look horrible. >> the biden campaign -- >> they're supremely confident. >> yes, they're confident it will be close. an aide told me the last week or so this person was saying, i feel very good of where we are. we're going to win decisively by a less a point. far better organization, far more state offices. that advantage is only going to grow. most still think there's some skepticism whether this is going to be the race. i'm told yesterday that's part of why these debates are important and why they're happening so early. there's an understanding now so many americans vote early. >> your second point, i'm still having intelligent people with advanced degrees telling me who's a republican nominee really going to be. >> people still wonder, they think joe biden is too old. donald trump will be prison, he can't do it. here's the guy, he's the nominee, do you really want this again? >> i don't know if i'm suffering from campaign post-traumatic stress. don't go all robbie muck on us. >> anything can happen. >> here's's a theory, the biden campaign, i think they're right, it's going to be a close race and in close races it's the blocking, it's the tackling that wins it for you. we saw this in 2004, we thought with 2004 with bush against kerry just like 2000, but you had kimmel vin who was blocking and tackling from january on, phone calls every day, going around, and that stuff adds up in close races. if you know it's going to be a close, that stuff adds up. maybe they're wrong, but i will tell you, the difference between this campaign and '16 is, there was arrogance in the '16 campaign, they made fun of donald trump. they said no way can donald trump win. this is the one good thing about these "the new york times" polls, it scares the crap of fund-raisers who will say, can we give you more? i guess after the election is over, donald trump will say it was a conspiracy the "the new york times." >> president biden and donald trump agreeing to presidential debates. things escalated pretty rapidly throughout yesterday afternoon with both candidates announcing they have accepted two invitations to debate, once on cnn on june 27th. and again on abc, on september 10th. the rules will differ from past election cycles. the candidates agreed to bypass the commission on presidential debates. biden also requested these guidelines, which trump begrudgingly accepted. at least we think he accepted it. we'll never know. no audience in the room. no third-party candidates be able to participate. select news outlets can host. candidate's microphone be shut off if they go over their allot ed speaking spot. >> you know, i think there's a lot of ed to suggest that donald trump is not -- he won't necessary make good on this. there's, though, the thing that trump has been, the kind of core the paradigm for the trump campaign, donald trump is strong, joe biden is weak. he's weak, failing, flailing. >> they don't want that contrast, because donald trump is weak and flailing and miserable. >> that's not what they think. >> you don't think that suzy and chris the smart people on his campaign don't understand how often this guy loses his train of thought. >> i think they do. >> they know. >> so they know. i think they have a darker -- they have a more critical view of joe biden's errors and missteps in this area than you do. we're talking about the point of the view, will they let donald trump go and debate? it will be a very tricky thing for donald trump, whose main point of view, i'm a tough guy, joe biden is weak and flailing. i'm strong and tough. i'm unstoppable. i think he has painted himself in a corner because trump didn't necessarily believe that biden would stand up and say he would take these debates and now he's kind of in a corner, donald trump likes to leave himself wiggle room. if you ask me whether i think these debates are going to happen, not close to 100 pkts. more likely than not that trump will feel he has no choice than to do these debate and what about his campaign, he'll go in there not with knowledge, not with experience on the world stage that was productive. he'll go with insults, with personal stuff about joe biden and he's going to come out at him hard and that's going to be the challenge and sometimes that throws people off. >> mika, i'm not laughing. i'm smiling at the fact that when donald trump tries all of those things, that he does in front of his fat alvis crowd, please throw a sweaty scarf in my direction it's going to be met with dead silence. >> i don't underestimate it. nasty dehafr is so shocking. it can be off-put zblg what about robert f. kennedy. >> he's not going to be included in these debates. his campaign put together some opposition to that yesterday. we're factoring into this poll, some americans may agree with him. but the trump and biden campaigns have cut him out. trump we should also note is calling for more than just these two, he has an agreement with fox news to host a third. but the biden campaign said this will be it. the vice presidential debate will be held in july. a sense that the biden campaign wants to box trump in, they know he was out ahead of this thing. we'll debate you and trump can't be perceived as walking away from that. if he did it would be a perception of weakness. >>> the new republican's june edition with the threat of american fascism. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." on "morning joe. . >>> you know, when we have been talking over the past several months about younger voters, seeing to break away from joe biden more, we've -- they've been looking at it through sort of the wrong lens talking about gaza, obviously there are concerns on campus about gaza. it's inflation, and younger americans having trouble buying gasoline, having trouble buying groceries and most importantly trouble getting their first home, inflation is driving them away from the biden administration, the inflation data yesterday released revealed some good news for cash-strapped shoppers. grocery prices dropped for the first time in a year, food prices fell by two-at the points of a percent in april. >> it's the first drop in a year, eggs led the decline with pricing dropping more than 7%. steve is over at the wall with charts to break it all down. steve, what do you got and can this continue? because, it's going to take a while for people to really feel the effects of this. >> as you guys have said, the inflation data is critical to the election and it has not gone well so far, but this may be the beginning of a better trend, what happened yesterday was the bureau of labor statistics announced their latest data, the headline, all the goods, up 3.4% year over year. we take out food and energy because they move around a lot, 3.6%. we got inflation down, stalled out, increased a little bit and now we have somewhat better news. i'll show you both in financial markets and in public opinion consumer sentiment has affected. what's important to note, bunch of stuff is still going up, insurance is 6% of the index. when you start to look at what people buy every day, food up 2.6% -- 2.2% year over year. energy, gasoline, home heating, all that stuff, up 2.6% year over year. and then goods, anything you buy, you know a piece of merchandise actually down 1.3% year over year, led by furniture, appliances and so forth and so it's -- it's a picture of inflation that perhaps the average american doesn't fully appreciate how much prices have moderated especially for the things they buy every day. >> housing up there, we're talking about housing and young voters, if you look at housing, if you look at the cost of cars, we talked about how automobiles, used automobiles -- >> can't get one. >> i was out last night at an event and people were talking about how hard it is to still get a decent car. by a decent car, i'm not talking about one of your rolls-royce. i'm talking about a ford fusion -- >> first on housing, housing is still going up, the big problem on housing is the affordability of a new house, house prices are still high, but mortgages are also high, the affordability, the ability for someone to afford a mortgage has gone down so much. 8% mortgage makes a house unaffordable. that's a huge problem. one thing about the cpi numbers it may give the federal reserve some new way to cut interest rates. bring down interest rates a bit. >> steve, car rental and insurance so expensive? >> 11.5%. i'm not complaining, if you're working and your work makes you fly from city to city, if you're in insurance, finance, people every week i see on planes that's what they do and so they get off the plane and then they have to go and they're dealing with still 11%, 12% increase in car rentals cost, man, that cuts into their salary. >> it does. this is only 6% of the index let's start with that. secondly, a lot of this is driven by insurance and this is a discussion for cnbc but insurance rates are going up across -- i'm happy to talk about it. >> we love it. >> go to the next chart. >> talk about -- >> please, i don't think there's anything i could ask you that will rise to your level of expertise. wages, this is a key point yesterday, as somebody who was complaining to me about inflation, the real key is whether wage increase is keeping up with the inflation increase, you don't want deflation, so now, you're going to tell me whether i was correct saying that wages are keeping up. >> you're correct. >> like i'm a host on cnbc. >> the cnbc crack wasn't aimed at you, joe, or you, mika. >> that was definitely -- >> that was for me. >> that was aimed at heilmann. >> easy target. >> fair enough. >> if you go back to when inflation was high in 2022 it did absolutely not keep up. inflation has moderated faster than wages have come down, you have had, joe, to your point, from well for than a year now, wage increase above inflation increase. if you look at the bottom quarter of americans they have done the early better than this 4% and so for the bottom group of americans their purchasing power has actually increased by more than that. >>> coming up, the boston celtics book a third straight trip to the eastern conference finals. you're the best, steve, even though you'd think i'd never make it on cnbc. >> seriously. >> the latest out of the nba playoffs as well as the major league baseball player who pablo said deserves a zillion dollar paycheck, who's that? "morning joe" will be right back. " will be right back (vo) in two seconds, eric will realize they're gonna need more space... (man) gotta sell the house. (vo) oh...open houses. or, skip the hassles and sell directly to opendoor. (man) wow. (vo) when life's doors open, we'll handle the house. >>> neither team has a time-out. ward to childs. that's it. >> for the third straight season new york has eliminated miami a head thing. i didn't know. >> what is going on? >> i'm just doing my best to channel gen-z. >> it's wilbert. not just anybody. i don't know what to do -- i don't understand. >> oh yeah. >> i don't understand. >> he just explained it to you. >> for my hair. this is really cute. and let it hang down the back. >> right. >> thank you. >> the woman of many talents. >> all right, so, if you're watching at home and you're wondering what's happening when we do sports segments, mika she cleans out her purse. >> she's digging in there. >> alex, if you can keep the shot off of me as much as possible we'll go around the table. >> this is for hopson once a month. for ticks. >>> the knicks, the conference finals in 2000, if you can make a little noise that would be awesome. now they're one game away from sending new york city fans into a sports frenzy, burning down buildings making it generally unsafe for children and their loved ones to walk down city streets. let's bring in pablo, so much to ta
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