we were doing immunologic tests, and within six months of michael gottlieb's discovery of aids, we found women and children who had the same symptomatology and we felt that they were also aids. so it told us that this was being transmitted probably by a virus -- we didn't know what the virus was in '81, '82 -- and that it was transmitted by blood transfusions, which we found the first case of here in san francisco, and then from mothers to infants. and that expanded the idea of what was gonna happen in this epidemic. and it was really dreadful, and we used to think what would happen if this epidemic expanded. >> and i remember meeting some of the children who were infected. unfortunately, they all died very young, because there wasn't any treatment for them. the treatments were hard enough to get for the adults. >> well, it was urgent. i mean, basically, the young men with aids were dying -- there was no treatment until 1987 -- from 1981 to '87. and for children, it was hard to explain, and for the first time i think in medical history, modern medical history anyway, we had a disease tha