i'll ask former cia director michael hayden next. [ slap! ] [ slap! slap! slap! slap! slap!ale announcer ] your favorite foods fighting you? fight back fast with tums. calcium rich tums goes to work in seconds. nothing works faster. ♪ tum tum tum tum tums two of the most important are energy security and economic growth. north america actually has one of the largest oil reserves in the world. a large part of that is oil sands. this resource has the ability to create hundreds of thousands of jobs. at our kearl project in canada, we'll be able to produce these oil sands with the same emissions as many other oils and that's a huge breakthrough. that's good for our country's energy security and our economy. that's good for our country's energy security or creates another laptop bag or hires another employee, it's not just good for business -- it's good for the entire community. at bank of america, we know the impact that local businesses have on communities, so we're helping them with advice from local business experts and extending $18 billion in credit last year. that's how we

and one of them was lieutenant general michael hayden, the head of the agency. hayden wanted to transform the nsa, and launched a massive modernization program code-named "trailblazer." it was supposed to do what thin thread did and a whole lot more. trailblazer would be the nsa's biggest project. hayden's philosophy was to let private industry do the job. enormous deals were signed with defense contractors. bill binney's thin thread program cost $3 million; trailblazer would run more than a billion and take years to develop. do you have any idea why general hayden decided to go with trailblazer as opposed to thin thread, which already existed? >> drake: i believe he was convinced by others that going with a large scale, industrial strength solution was the approach that nsa needed to take. you can't really understand why they would make that kind of a decision without understanding the culture of nsa. >> pelley: help me understand it. >> drake: careers are built on projects and programs-- the bigger, the better the career. >> pelley: this might be just another

it wasn't until two thousand and seven when it was a real to the public by then cia director michael hayden however this was also around the same time a torture grave occurred and was starting to get a lot of negative media attention for the agency so it makes sense that they would prefer to just destroy the incriminating evidence of their practices rather than have to suffer the consequences of their actions and we discussed the destruction of the evidence with senior a.c.l.u. member christopher anders he mentioned that nobody of any real significance has been held accountable for what is legal and fortunately since i will agree if you will include held criminally liable are people at the very bottom soldiers soldiers and sailors who are who are privates and corporals sergeants. so the a.c.l.u. took the cia to civil court for destroying the evidence of illegal torture and it's been a long hard battle since that and sadly we're going to learn today and not much is going to come out of all of this the judge in this case ordered the cia to reimburse the a.c.l.u. for their legal fees the respo

the former head of the c.i.a., general michael hayden, is in the studio and he's next.t a big crowd today. hey, matt! ♪ [ male announcer ] heard this one? listen to this. three out of four americans don't get enough vegetables. so here's five bucks to help you buy v8 juice. five bucks. that's a lot of green. go to v8juice.com for coupons. you can count on us. >> dave: welcome back. the new debt deal between congress and the president cuts $350 billion from the defense department over the next ten years. and even more could be cut from defense if congress can't agree to further cuts in other areas. that's that trigger we've been hearing about. defense secretary leon panetta warned that may jeopardize national security. >> if it did happen, it would result in a further round of very dangerous cuts across the board. defense cuts that i believe would do real damage to our security, our troops and their families, and our military's ability to protect the nation. >> dave: referring to it as a doomsday. joining me is former c.i.a. director under president bush and the current

general michael hayden is a former director of both the c.i.a., both the c.i.a. us right now from washington. general, how significant a kill? >> brian, this is a big deal. i'm looking back on last week, this is probably the second best thing that could possibly have happened to us going against al-qaida, and not a distant second either. obviously, killing al-zarqawi would have been the very best but he is a very important target. his removal from the battlefield will have effects that will be felt for a long time over a great distance in the organization. >> they say that he was the link between al-zarqawi and his lack of people skills and the rest of al-qaida, he would have been the p.r. front and helped with plotting and planning. without that, he has to feel extremely isolated, do you agree? >> i agree, absolutely and your description is quite right. he has a personality quite different from al-zarqawi who was prickly at best on a good day. he was a bit of a modest man and established a lot of contacts. he was the bridge and the fixture in the organization an