former pence attorney agreeing jacob and retired conservative federal judge michael luttig both who saidcondemnation of trump saying in part, quote, no american ought to turn away from january 6 2021 until all of america comes to grips of what be befell yoour country. and we'll have more on that in a moment. plus new details surrounding emails from between john eastma ginni thomas. justices got into a eitither heated fight over to whether to take over the case on the 2020 election. >> and let's begin with manu, he is on capitol hill. talk to us more about what will happen today in this

well, the retired judge j michael luttig gave evidence to the committee today.e is what he had to say about former president donald trump. >> donald trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present danger to erican democracy. >> let's turn to ron christie, friend of the program, who worked in the white house of president george w. bush. ron, when you see those images of mike pence sheltering in a secure underground location and you hear that president trump called him a wimp on the morning of january 6, what's your reaction? >> laura, good evening. my reaction is one of anger. for having wked for the vice president of the united states, dick cheney, and subsequently, the president, the one thing i can tell you is you have to have a constitutional separation of powers. the vice president here in america is also the president of the u.s. senate. so, when you look at what mr. bentz -- what mike pence had to do to certify the election at day, the president of the u.s. and in the executive branch was asking him to do something that simply in my opinion was

former federal judge michael luttig didn't mince words about threats to the electoral system. donald trump. and his. allies and supporters are a clear and present danger. to american democracy. trump confidant john eastman engineered a scheme which hinged on vice president pence, rejecting slates of electoral ballots as he presided over certification of the electoral college on january 6th . but pence's counsel testified that eastman apparently wanted two sets of rules. one for everyone else and a special set for former president trump, he said. absolutely al gore did not have a basis to do it in 2000. kamala harris shouldn't be able to do it in 2024. but i think you should do it today warned that an effort by pence to tilt the scale toward mr trump would pl a revolution. the 16 committee hearings are consuming summertime viewing hours reminiscent of the watergate hearings in the summer of 1973. and iran contra hearings in the summer of 1987 were definitely trending there or more doing this for the historical record that when we look back the way we look back at watergate, um

witnesses testifying on thursday included michael luttig, a retired judge and one of the most influential right-wing legal experts in the country. he described trump as a clear and present danger to american democracy. judge luttig warned that trump and allies will also attempt to overturn the 2024 election if they lose -- and this time they may succeed. we will have more on the house hearing later in the show. the senate armed services committee has endorsed an $847 billion military budget. that's $45 billion more than requested by president biden. democratic senator jack reed, the chair of the committee said some of the extra money is needed to replenish weapons sent to ukraine. there is, however, a push in congress by some progressives to shrink the pentagon's budget. earlier this week, democratic representatives barbara lee and mark pocan introduced the people over pentagon act of 2022 which calls for cutting $100 billion from the military budget. in statement, congressmember lee said -- "the amount of money the defense industry convinces congress to spend each year doesn't protect us

he's a charter of the federalist society, he speaks with great authority and when michael luttig starts talking about constitutional crises in america, there is a swathe of conservative judicial thought that is going to pay attention as perhaps they haven't before. >> abby, we'll hear a lot about mike pence, actually going to hear directly from pence. how much do you think that matters in all this? >> i don't think it's going to matter a lot at the end of the day. i think the committee has the information that they need to make the argument that they want to make, and they're going to also have one of mike pence's close toest aides, mark short, testifying today as well and i think that will give us a lot of inside into what was going on in pence's world on that day and the days leading up to january 6th. i think the committee decided that they didn't want to have a big fight over whether mike pence would appear and probably for the best. at the end of the day, that fight may not have produced testimony from pence and other people have effectively the same information. you're going to se

conservative judge, michael luttig, an outside adviser to pence said the threat to democracy remains to this day. >> donald trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present danger. >> reporter: during the hearing, there was a letter released sent by the justice department to the january 6 committee, asking the committee for copies of all the transcripts from all their interviews. the committee won't comment, but in the letter, the justice department says it needs those transcripts, norah, to prosecute more january 6 criminals. >> o'donnell: scott macfarlane, thank you. also new tonight, we learned the committee now wants to interview supreme court justice clarence thomas' wife, ginni, after new emails were revealed from the conservative activist. cbs' robert costa is here. so, wow, this is a new step forward. i mean, how soon could this happen? >> reporter: very soon. norah, for months after cbs news and "the washington post" broke the news on this program that there were text messages between the white house chief of staff and ginni thomas, we have sought comment. now, mi

that was retired federal judge michael luttig.ised vice president mike pence on january 6th, describing the real and del and ongoing threat that the disgraced twice impeached ex president and his supporters posed then and continued to pose to our entire democracy. joining our coverage, tim miller, writer at large for the bulwark and the host of the new podcast, history is us. tim miller, your thoughts? >> i thought it was powerful. obviously he is not a performer. this was not a performer meant for primetime. the reason his testimony was so important was because of the substance and who it's coming from. i know for some people, all republicans are the same stripe, but he is not a moderate mitt romney republican like i was, right? he comes from the scalia, alito school of the hard right constitutional conservatives. he's on the short list to be on the supreme court, to have the alito seat when bush was president. this is a person with the utmost credibility work conservative credentials. he still is in good standing with the pences

j michael luttig. been following events from los angeles. this was an extremely compelling hearing and i think the thing that struck me was the thing that struck me was the amount of detail and interesting because this is detail that is coming in testimony from people who were close to donald trump, part of the trumpet in a circle, during his presidency but they are giving us detail about the hours and the days before january the six, the conversations and the tone of the conversations that the president was having on his train of thought during that time, the fact that he was seemingly being advised by one of his lawyers about this plan to get mike pence do not certify the election, that he was told in no uncertain terms, including by mr mike pence that this could not happen, it was not legal and that mr pence would not do it but then mr trump continued with his plan and as we well know now, minutes, hours before that surge into the capital building by those protesters, that violent attack on congress

a staunch conservative republican who long served on the federal bench, retired judge michael luttig, will testify tomorrow, speaking to the nation and to his own party, that america's democracy was almost stolen from her. those are exclusive new details confirmed by cbs news. he will also speak out against his former clerk, john eastman, about that infamous memo trump tried to use to overturn the election. >> o'donnell: and one of the things that's still missing in the puzzle is what vice president mike pence was doing on january 6 that day. what are we learning about that? >> we expect to learn new details from pence's former counsel greg jacob, about how trump was enraged on the eve of the insurrection, inside the white house, one on one with pence. we'll also learn about how pence finalized his letter resisting trump's pleas to block president biden's certification. we'll learn all about how pence's inner circle handled the crisis in the presidency. these are from republicans, not democrats. >> staunch conservatives. >> o'donnell: thanks to scott macfarlane and bob costa. they'll

former federal judge michael luttig didn't mince words about threats to the electoral system. donald trump. and his. allies and supporters are a clear and present danger. to american democracy. trump confidant john eastman engineered a scheme which hinged on vice president pence, rejecting slates of electoral ballots as he presided over certification of the electoral college on january 6th . but pence's counsel testified that eastman apparently wanted two sets of rules. one for everyone else and a special set for former president trump, he said. absolutely al gore did not have a basis to do it in 2000. kamala harris shouldn't be able to do it in 2024. but i think you should do it today warned that an effort by pence to tilt the scale toward mr trump would plunge the country into what he termed a revolution. the 1/6 committee hearings are consuming summertime viewing hours reminiscent of the watergate hearings in the summer of 1973. and iran contra hearings in the summer of 1987 were definitely trending there or more doing this for the historical record that when we look back t

conservative judge michael luttig, an outside adviser to pence, said the threat to democracy remainsald trump, and his allies and supporters, are a clear and present danger. >> reporter: during the hearing, there was a letter released, sent by the justice department to the january 6 committee, asking the committee for copies of all the transcripts from all their interviews. the committee won't comment, but in the letter, the justice department says it needs those transcripts, norah, to prosecute more january 6 criminals. >> o'donnell: scott macfarlane, thank you. also new tonight, we learned the committee now wants to interview supreme court justice clarence thomas' wife, ginni, after new emails were revealed from the conservative activist. cbs' robert costa is here. so, wow, this is a new step forward. i mean, how soon could this happen? >> reporter: very soon. norah, for months after cbs news and "the washington post" broke the news on this program that there were text messages between the white house chief of staff and ginni thomas, we have sought comment. now miss thomas has told

the other witness is the man that jacob mentioned in that email former federal judge, michael luttig. for all the retroactive reputation brandishing, that many of the people around trump attempted to do in their depositions. luttig is one person who's fully deserves accolades for standing up when it counted most. luttig was a star -- for many years, he worked in department of justice, where according to npr he served as the behind the same maestro for the burbs administration during the controversial cleric's time it's confirmation hearing in 1991. he then went on to be named a federal judge, public and president in the short list for supreme court g8. many conservative lawyers throughout the years clerked for a, and he was called a feeder judge, his clerk would go on to the supreme court and on to greatness. and that includes senator ted cruz, and the aforementioned john eastman author of the coup medal, he clerked for luttig, before clarence thomas. according to luttig, a day before the election the vice president outside cancel, as luttig to, probably skate pence could not reject e

you'll hear from former 4th circuit federal judge michael luttig, a highly respected leading conservative judge. john eastman clerked for judge looted. judge looted provided counsel to the vice president's team in the days before january 6. the judge will explain how eastman quote was wrong at every turn. and you will see the e-mail exchanges between easton and the vice president's council as the violent attack on congress was underway. mister jacobs said this to me is mister eastman. thanks to your. we are under siege. you'll also see evidence that john eastman did not actually believe the legal position he was taking. in fact, a month before the 2020 election, eastman took exactly the opposite view on the same legal issues. in the course of the select committee's work to obtain information from mister eastman. we've had occasion to present evidence to a federal judge. the judge evaluated the facts and he reached the conclusion. the president trump's efforts to pressure vice president pence to act illegally by refusing to count electoral votes likely violated to federal criminal statutes

. >> in addition, a highly respected conservative and retired federal judge, jay michael luttig, says he believe it is pence had obeyed trump's orders and declared trump to be the next president, that would have punged plunged the united states of america into tantamount of a revolution. pence did not, and pence told the president the morning of january 6th that he would not, in a phone call that was described as heated. >> did you hear any part of the phone call? even if just the end that the president was speaking from? >> i did, yes. >> what did you hear? >> my memory, i remember hearing the word "wimp," either he called him a wimp, i don't remember if he said -- wimp is the word i remember. something to the effect this is the wording is wrong. i made the wrong decision for our five years ago. >> and the word that he repla -- the word, do you remember what she said her father called anymore >> the "p" word. >> our investigation found that early drafts of the january 6th ellipse speech prepared for the president, include nod d no men of the vice president, but revised it to criticiz

expect to hear from key pence advisors -- his former counsel greg jacob and retired federal judge michael luttig. their reports of closed door testimony from marc short, pence's one-time chief of staff, will also be included. earlier tonight, short talked about trump's actions that led to the riot. >> i've shared that i think the president was poorly advised by a lot of the people around him at that time. i think ultimately the buck stops with the president. he has responsibility to listen to advice or to discard advice. >> as the house committee hold these hearings, the investigation continues, the washington post reporting on a new revelation about ginni thomas. she, of course, is the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas. the paper says the panel now has emails between ginni thomas herself and lawyer john eastman, who once clerked for clarence thomas and who played a very big part in trump's plot to stay in power. the committee is also intensifying its focus on republican congressman barry loudermilk. let's say his name again barry loudermilk -- do not forget it. this guy gave a tour

. >> and that point was made repeatedly over and over again by judge michael luttig in his prepared statement, hi wrote over a year and a half later, after january 6th, in continued defims of our democracy, the former president and his political party allies still maintain the 2020 presidential election was stolen from them, despite all evidence, all evidence now that is simply false. so we keep hearing that over and over again. jake, back to you. >> thanks, wolf. and you're watching "the lead" after this hearing. we're joined now by a member of the house select committee, who played a leading role in today's hearing, california democratic representative pete aguilar. congressman, thanks so much for joining us today. we heard numerous trump insiders admit that john eastman's legal theory didn't hold water in any way. one of them each said to eastman, are you out of your "f"-ing mind? john eastman, according to testimony himself admitted that such an argument would lose 9-0 at the supreme court, although originally he said 7-2. why is it important for the committee to establish for the public

michael luttig is expected to accuse trump of instigating a war on democracy so he could cl i think toower. he said, quote, had the vice president of the united states obeyed the president of the united states america would immediately have been lunged into what would have been tantamount to a revolution within a pair leadsing constitutional crisis. pamela brown is following this from washington and she has more. it is really interesting to hear some of what luttig is going to say, it's really just a preview of what is to come. >> reporter: it certainly is. this is significant, brianna. this is a retired republican federal judge, j. michael luttig, and he is a key witness testifying to the committee today because he advised mike pence the former vice president it would be unconstitutional to overturn the election results, our jamie begin gal obtained a statement and he says, quote, this false and reckless insistence that the former president won the 2020 presidential election has laid waste to americans confidence in their national elections. more alarming still is that the former pres

you'll hear from michael luttig, a candidate under george w. bush would out fined for the vice president in clear terms that he did not have the power to do what donald trump told him to do. we're told that mike pence told this to the president two dozen times an the president wasn't listening trying to pressure him right up until the last minute. and we heard testimony that the president seemed approved of the chants hang mike pence. maybe he deserves it. whether he was serious or not, that tells you a lot about where that president was at that moment of peril to the country and to his own vice president. >> and peter, as you know from your reporting and we've seen publicly, the president trump on the ellipse that day was imploring from that podium, and imploring the vice president to do what he said, to do the right thing. he was tweeting at him. will he do the right thing and then tweeting his disappointment when he didn't. you could speak to the intensity of the pressure that was on the vice president in this moment and his ability along wi

michael luttig played a crucial role in stopping the pot from succeeding on january 6th, stopping the mike pence part of the plot from succeeding, when he released a public statement, basically alerting the country to the fact that they were pressuring pence to personally throw out the electoral vote during the count on january 6th. judge luttig stated in very clear terms that pence had no authority to do that, that it would be illegal for him to do that. judge it's luttig very, very influential, particularly on the right. he's a very high profile, very conservative judge. people like senator ted cruz and trump lawyer john eastman. they were both clerks to judge luttig when he was on the bench. him testifying tomorrow about his role in stopping this plot is going to be kind of a heavyweight moment. again, particularly, for people on the right, because he holds such sway there. but also -- i said we have a lot to get to, boy, it has been a day -- today, on the eve of that next hearing tomorrow, which should be very dramatic, we had just a head snapping revelation from the january 6th i

but, you know, today what we're going to see is judge michael luttig, a major hero to the federalist society and the right wing, he's kind of like at the level of justice scalia or robert bork to them, but we're hoping he helps us put the lie to the -- that there was any kind of ambiguity about the role of the vice president, just like there was the big lie and the big rip-off, here there is the big joke, the idea that for two centuries the vice president somehow had the unilateral power just to vaporize electoral college votes from the states, but had never done it and suddenly they discovered it. and, of course, that's ridiculous, that's not what the role of the vice president is. and judge luttig played a role in squashing that idea from the eastman memo that was the basis for his so-called green base sweep of basically overwhelming and wiping out the card table at the end. >> want to talk about judge luttig in a second. you mentioned a second ago that new witnesses are coming forward. who? >> new evidence is coming forward. there are things that are being revealed on almost a dai

cbs news has learned one of today's star witnesses, retired conservative federal judge michael luttig, is expected to testify before the house panel investigating january 6th, 2021, that america's democracy was almost stolen during president trump's efforts to remain in office. before the deadly capitol attack, luttig is said to have urged vice president pence and his aides to resist mr. trump's pressure campaign to delay or block the congressional certification of joe biden's victory. in the panel's first two hearings, the house select committee began its effort to directly connect the former president to the insurrection. >> will tell the story of how donald trump lost an election and knew he lost an election, and as a result of his loss decided to wage an attack on our democracy. >> reporter: on the eve of thursday's hearing, the select committee released video of a tour led by georgia republican congressman barry loudermilk the day before the capitol attack with some of the guests documenting locations like staircases, security checkpoints, and hallways. the panel says the footage

those witnesses include former mike pence attorney, greg jacob, and retired republican judge, michael luttig. we are expecting a bank statements from the chair is benny thompson and liz cheney, congressman aguilar expected to outline the case and then question the witnesses. we want to let you know that the january six committee hearings that all c-span program is brought to you as a public service by the cable industry and these television companies, including dish network, comcast and charter communications. and also, don't forget that, if you have to leave your tv today, you can continue watching the hearing with c-span now, our free mobile video app.

one wittness was] michael luttig, a formerjudge and influentialfigure in the conservative legal communityence had done as trump asked, it would have been "tantamount to revolution" and that this remains a continuing threat. donald trump and his allies and supporters... ..are a clear and present danger to american democracy. i have been speaking to our north america correspondent peter bowes on what stood out in thursday's testimony. this was a really powerful, it was a compelling hearing, focusing, as you have said, on the role of mike pence. and i think the message that really comes through is... and we've heard the testimony or heard of the testimony of several people who were part of the trump administration, seniorfigures working with mike pence, his chief of staff and his legal counsel, talking about how president trump knew that what he was asking of his vice president was illegal. he was essentially told that by the lawyer that came up with this plan, the lawyer who actually acknowledged that it would not pass legal scrutiny, that perhaps if it went to the supreme court, it would b

pence eventually certifying the results after consulting with widely respected conservative judge michael luttig. >> that declaration of donald trump as the next president would have plunged america into what i believe would have been tantamount to a revolution. >> reporter: and, mona, as the committee plans its next hearing on tuesday, they want to hear from ginni thomas, a strong trump backer and wife of supreme court discuss 'tis clarence thomas. there are questions about her role in the effort to overturn the election. mona. >> faith, thank you. >>> big news in sports, the golden state warriors are nba champions again. the warriors won their fourth title in the past eight seasons beating boston in game six of the finals. steph curry led the way with 34 points picking up his first finals mvp. >> nobody thought we'd be here. except everybody in this -- on this court right now, and to get back here and get it done means the world. >> fans celebrated well into the morning in the bay area. they're probably still celebrating. the warriors championship parade is set for monday. >>> now to the econo

michael luttig. >> i would have laid my body across the road before i would have let the vice president overturn the 2020 election. >> what was vice president pence's reaction when you showed him the email where dr. eastman, after the attack on the capitol, still asked that the vice president delay certification and send it become to the states? >> he said that's rubber room stuff. >> reporter: thursday committee chairman bennie thompson told reporters that it may be time to invite conservative activist ginny thomas, wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas to the committee. confirming that "the washington post" reporting eastman emailed ms. thomas and also exchanged multiple text messages with mark meadows about overturning the election results. >> we have sent ms. thomas a letter asking to come and talk to the committee. >> reporter: the daily caller says mrs. thomas signaled she may be willing to talk, telling them she can't, quote, wait to clear up misconceptions. the justice department told the committee that they also want some of that witness testimony to try to help in thei

all this come after the warning from respected conservative legal scholar and retired judge michael luttig. >> that still donald trump and his allies and supporters -- are a clear and present danger to american democracy. >> that warning of a clear and present danger. jon karl with us from washington again tonight. jon, i know the justice department has been calling on the january 6th committee to turn over the transcripts of its interviews with these key witnesses, and tonight you've learned that could happen as soon as next month. >> reporter: the chairman of the january 6th select committee benny thompson said he'll not turn the transcripts over until their hearings are over. david, the hearings are scheduled to be completed by the end of this month. i am told that shortly after the hearings wrap up they will likely turn the transcripts over. in other words, as early as july. >> all right, jon karl who's been with us all week long on this. appreciate it. >>> we turn to the economy and news on mortgages across this country them comes after a tough week already, the massive interest rate

. >> reporter: for guidance, pence turned to former judge michael luttig, a widely respected conservative appointed by george h.w. bush. luttig today declared if pence had done what trump wanted him to do, the consequences would have been dire. >> that declaration of donald trump as the next president would have plunged america into what i believe would have been tantamount to a revolution within a constitutional crisis in america. >> jon karl with us live from capitol hill tonight. jon, you were on the air with us today, all day long, and i know abc news has learned that donald trump and mike pence haven't talked since last summer? >> reporter: it's been a year, almost a year since they last talked, but pence has said publicly and bluntl he believes donald trump was wrong and, quote, there's almost no idea more un-american than the notion that any one person could choose the president. >> and jon, we learned today that after it became clear that the election would not be overturned, the night of january 6th, that lawyer that president trump had teamed up with on this scheme to halt the v

two key republicans, pence's former white house counsel, greg jacob, and former federal judge, michael luttig, their testimony focused on trump's lawyer, john eastman and his scheme to defy the electoral count act and reverse joe biden's victory. trump was apparently 100% behind eastman's plan, despite being informed over and over that the plan was illegal. greg jacob went on to testify that even eastman himself admitted the plot was against the law. >> when i pressed him on the point, i said, john, if the vice president did what you are asking him to do, we would lose 9-0 in the supreme court, wouldn't we? and he initially started, well, i think we would lose only 7 to 2. but after some further discussion, he acknowledged, yeah, you are right, we would lose 9 to nothing. >> dr. eastman admit in front of the president that his proposal would violate the electoral count act? >> mr. eastman acknowledge that that was the case, even if he knew the more politically palatable option would violate several provisions. but he thought we could do so because in his view, the electoral count act was unco

a staunch conservative republican who long served on the federal bench, retired judge michael luttig, will testify tomorrow speaking to the nation and to his own party that america's democracy was almost stolen from her. those are exclusive new details confirmed by cbs news. he will also speak out against his former clerk, john eastman, about that infamous memo trump tried to use to overturn the election. >> o'donnell: and one of the things that's still missing in the puzzle is what vice president mike pence was doing on january 6 that day. what are we learning about that? >> we expect to learn new details from pence's former counsel greg jacob, about how trump was enraged on the east of the insurrection, inside the white house, one on one with pence. we'll also learn about how pence finalized hadiz letter resisting trump's employees to block the certification. we'll learn how pencey's inner serkle handled the it. >> o'donnell: they'll both be with us tomorrow for the coverage of the january 6 committee third day of public hearings. that's tomorrow starting at 1:00 p.m. eastern time.

one witness was] michael luttig, a formerjudge and influentialfigure in the conservative legal communityg threat. donald trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present danger to american democracy. let�*s speak to our north america correspondent peter bowes. all about mike pence today but what was the most interesting thing about the hearing today? it was an extremely compelling hearing and the thing that struck me was the amount of detail and interesting because this is detail that is coming in testimony from people close to donald trump, part of the trumpet in a circle during the presidency. they are giving us details about the hours and days before january six, the conversations and the tone of the conversations that the president was having and his thoughts during that time and the fact it was seemingly being advised by one of his lawyers about this plan to get mike pence do not certify the election, that he was told in no uncertain terms, including by mike pence, that it could not happen, that it was not legal and that mike pence would not do it, yet, donald trump conti

one witness was] michael luttig, a formerjudge and inluential figure in the conservative legal communityce had done as trump asked, it would have been "tantamount to revolution" and that this remains a continuing threat. donald trump and his allies and supporters... ..are a clear and present danger to american democracy. let's get the latest from our north america correspondent peter bowes. thanks very much, peter, for coming up thanks very much, peter, for coming up for us. testimony is really mounting against the former president donald trump. what stood out for you enters a's hearing this? this was really powerful, it was a compelling hearing, focusing, as you have said, on the role of mike pence and i think the message that really comes through is, and we have heard the testimony or heard of the testimony of several people who were part of the trump administration, seniorfigures working part of the trump administration, senior figures working with mike pence, this chief of staff and his legal counsel, talk about how president trump knew that what he was asking that his vice president

michael luttig. luttig is one of the most widely respected conservative legal scholars in the country. today, he laid out the stakes of this attempted coup: >> the foundational truth is the rule of law. that foundational truth is, for the united states of america, the profound truth. but it's not merely the profound truth for the united states. it's also the simple truth. the simple, foundational truth of the american republic. (applause) >> stephen: agh! is anyone in jail yet? no? okay. judge luttig was unequivocal about eastman's plan. >> i would have laid my body across the road, before i would have let the vice president overturn the 2020 election, on the basis of that historical precedent. >> stephen: brave words. but based on his energy level, i'm pretty sure he'd have laid his body down way before he got to the road. first patch of grass he saw. then the committee moved on to the second part of their argument, that, despite pence's refusal to go along with the plot, the former president kept p

people that were heavily involved in that, including his chief counsel, greg jacob, and also judge michael luttigrt of a group of people that were advising the vice president not to go along with the former president's plan. >> appreciate it. jamie gangel joins us now. what are you expecting tomorrow? >> reporter: well, anderson, as ryan just mentioned, we're going to hear about this pressure that trump and his allies put on mike pence. i expect we're also going to hear more from white house council eric hershmann, whose recent video tape testimony has gone viral for this exchange where he warned john eastman, that trump outside lawyer who's pushing the outlandish legal theories, to overturn the election. and this is what hershmann says to eastman, that he's going to need a lawyer himself. >> i said, good, john. now i'm going to give you the best free legal advice you're ever getting in your life. get a great fing criminal defense lawyer. you're going to need it. >> it turns out, anderson, that was good advice. and apparently eastman took it because according to sources familiar with the committe

testifying today who lay out from the pence team perspective the attorney and the former judge michael luttig, why they feel they were from the mind of the very beginning the vice president did not have the authority to stop the count of the electoral votes on january 6th and that they went back and for the again and again and again and it seems as though what we have seen in the course of the hearings is ever-shrinking circle of people who supported president trump's wishes to do whatever it would take to halt this process, send it back to the states in order to get this thing drawn out in hopes that they could, you know, find the votes, as he said on the phone call in georgia, to turn this thing around and john eastman, a circle of two, essentially, he went to the university of chicago with the lawyer just speaking, a close associate of vice president pence, and really at many turns, john eastman basically says you know, i get it. i know the supreme court would not stand up for this, i know that it wouldn't really hold water but we are going to pursue it anyway, john, and that's the course

michael louis dig. eastman was a clerk of luttig.h of them testified that eastman's theory was not legal, not constitutional, and that it also had no historical precedent. despite all of that, eastman continued to push this theory that, and hislan, that pence could overturn the election results by simply rejecting the slate of electors sent to congress by the stes. what we heard from jacob today in testimony was that in his conversations with eastman, eastman acknowledged either tacitly or directly that his plan was not legal. let's watch. >> he said, absolutely. al gore did not have the basis to do it in 2000, kamala harris should not be able to do it in 2024. but i think you should do it today. when i pressed him on the point, i said, john, if the vice president did what you are asking him to do, we will loon 9-0 in the -- lose 9-0 in the supreme court. he initially started saying, i think you would only lose 7-2. after further discussion, acknowledged well, you are right, we would lose 9-0. laura: despite all of those acknowledgme

. >> he serves the role as the conscious of democracy, michael luttig, i remember thinking like judgeight-wing judge. he's the guy. >> he believes in the rule of law. and that's the key point. he believes in the rule of law. and he leads and democracy. believes that if you lose an election, you lose election. -- you cooperate and do the best thing for the country. he puts his country above politics, he puts his country, the constitution above party. he is a principled man. and a brilliant man. and one of the great judges i think of our generation. >> we'll see him tomorrow in that hearing room. along with greg jacob one of the people who we spent a lot of time thinking is john eastman. who interesting way, federal society member, different parts of the world of conservative legal folks. again, luttig thomas clark who has its badge in that were armed. we have reporting of today that the house committee investigating the attack has obtained email correspondence between virginia, ginni thomas, and john eastman. the email shut thomas's effort to overturn the election meaning ginni thomas,

. >> that's basically what michael luttig said, right, career republican, retired judge, was talking about preserving america, our democracy here. >> i think he's been an uncommon voice. and that's been the frame that you've heard, and you've heard that from cheney. you've heard that from kinzinger, you've heard this from the various elements of the republican party that have criticized trump and trumpism. but it's all been from the idea of self interest. that, look, this is not good for us in the long run. >> harry, the committee is now sending its interview transcripts over to the justice department. and i want to share what committee member zoe lofgren said about this today. >> we are going to talk about provide what's what's necessary for them. it makes me wonder, though, what have they've been doing over there? they have a much easier way to compel testimony under their subpoenas than we do under ours. >> you are our legal mind here, harry. can you explain that? why does the doj need a the committee to help them? isn't this what the department of justice does? >> maybe. look, fi

melissa, testimony from the vice president's legal counsel with mike pence and retired judge michael luttig a former adviser to mike pence. he went to and said is any of this legal that i, mile, can change the election? you will know better than most people, i'm almost a complete super nerd. this is a luminary of conservative jurisprudence. this is a very conservative judge. what are you expecting to hear from him? what should we expect to hear when we hear him testify? >> you are exactly right. judge luttig is in the affirmative legal movement. he was a judge on the fourth circuit. he was widely -- contested to be in the running that chief justice john roberts holds. this is no fly by night conservative and someone that makes very clear that he was absolutely alarmed and indeed discouraged when he heard what the vice president was telling him to get advice to do. so he acted again out of conscience, out of love for country and the constitution and not about any kind of party affiliation. i think what we will see from his testimony tomorrow is exactly that threat, that this was a threat tha

we are hearing that formal general council, greg jacob is likely to testify and michael luttig.from marc short who was with pence on january 6th and a firsthand witness to many of the events. >> jamie gangle, thank you, we'll be right back. >> sure. but we'll gladly be functional. so you can be free. booking.com booking.yeah shh! stealth mode? yeah. [cricket sounds] shh! shh! [light switch clicks] don't pta meetings end at nine? -it ran... late. -oh got lost. the lexus rx built for modern families. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ women have to overcome more obstacles to reach the top. it's made them fiercely determined and more innovative. just because they can navigate the obstacles doesn't mean they should have to. citi is committed to investing in opportunities for 10 million women globally by 2025. ♪ ♪

michael luttig, a former federal conservative judge who had advised mike pence. while the wide question swirls around tomorrow's delay, yesterday's was focused so intensely on former president trump's refusal to accept the truth the election was fair and he lost that there are real questions about what the committee will do with all of the evidence. will they send a criminal referral for the former president to the department of justice? chairman benny thompson says no. >> but you don't, just to be clear, you don't anticipate that the committee, itself, will offer up a formal referral? >> no, that's not our job. our job is to look at the facts and circumstances around journal 6. what caused it and make recommendations after that. >> but is ranking member liz cheney saying maybe. she tweeted the january 6th select committee has not issued a conclusion regarding potential criminal referrals. we will announce a decision on that at an appropriate time. all right. the committee laid out a case for the why when the president refused to accept the results beyond just a

that pence's former general counsel, greg jacob, is likely to testify, that former federal judge michael luttigou remember, a key role in putting out those tweets that knocked down his former law clerk john eastman's outlandish theory to try to get pence to overturn the election. the committee would like him to testify. and finally we're told the committee wants to hear from former pence chief of staff marc short who was with pence on january 6th and was a firsthand witness to many of the witnesses, anderson. >> thank you. great. we'll be right back. free cancellation on most bookinings. it's a bit functionalal. but we'll gladly be functional. so you can be free. booking.com booking.yeah a monster was attacking but the team remained calm. because with miro, they could problem solve together, and find the answer th was right under their nose. or... his nose. wealth is breaking ground on your biggest project yet. worth is giving the people who build it a solid foundation. wealth is shutting down the office for mike's retirement party. worth is giving the employee who spent half his life with you,

judge michael luttig, a preeminent conservative jurist once concern for the supreme court by president george w. bush and a former adviser to pence said it best at thursday's hearing. quote, tunnel trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present danger to american democracy. joining me now, msnbc legal analyst former u.s. attorney in alabama and co-host of the hashtag sisters in law podcasts, joyce vance. and president and ceo of the leadership conference on civil and human rights, maya wylie. choice, maya, thank you both very much for coming back to the sunday show. choice, i'm starting with you. as much as former president pence is being lionized, you take issue with his not testifying before the committee. why is it important that he do so? >> so i think it's a subtle but an important point. folks on mike pence's team stood up at the very end to keep democracy from crumbling at the behest of donald trump. and now, as the story begins to come out, we find out there are some important pieces that are missing. and those pieces are in the hands of mike pence. it's his story