i just talked to michael mccasey attorney general under george bush.es, he said it wasn't torture because it wasn't legally. >> well, michael mccasey and i have spent time together and i like his personally but i was profoundly saddened to hear his interview. the man left to die on that concrete floor had, i would assume, lasting problems since he died. i don't know what report the two of us have read but it is two different reports. there is no question that waterboarding is a crime. it is a war crime. we have prosecuted americans for it and prosecuted foreigners for it. the whole world understands it is a crime. to have a former attorney general sitting there and debating whether it is a crime is other-worldly. and i don't know how we got to this point. it is not just what is in this report that is so disturbing, what is disturbing is to hear the aftermath, to hear people say maybe it is effective. we helped write the treaty that said torture is not a defense. it doesn't matter whether you got spg oomething out of it, ita war crime. >> and jonathan,