. >> joining me now is michael sheehan, and -- joining me now is keyir simmons. let's go now to nbc news foreign correspondent keir simmons in amman, jordan. keir, a jordanian official called this a p.r. stunt. and another called it illogical. we know they are masters of propaganda. what are you hearing? >> reporter: that's right. al, in fact, they call it criminal propaganda and they are saying, the basic thing they are saying, they don't know whether this isis claim is true or not. after all, we are talking about about iraqa. what the jordanians are saying why would you trust a group that beheads incident people on camera that execute a jordanian pilot by setting him on fire alive? why would you trust them when to claim that she had been killed seems very convenient for them to be able to claim that with no one able to say whether it's true or not. >> now, this comes after a jordanian pilot was burned to death by isis as you mentioned. >> reporter: right. >> the jordanian sing said they will fight until they run out of fuel and bullets. how does that play into

i blip president obama is committed to do that when it's possible, but as michael sheehan said, it's hard to locate these people and figure out what to do. whether we're going to sort of go in, you know, with ground troops and take on the military responsibility ourselves, that's exactly what isis would want. i don't think we can conquer isis if the regional power and forces don't figure out on their own that it's most in their interest to do this with our help. >> i agree. baghdadi doesn't want his head blown off, either. thank you, david. this is a very fliblting situation. >>> up next president obama rejected an autographed poster from michael jordan, because jordan misspelled his first name. this is a bit of a tiff, and that's where it belongs this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪ >>> back to "hardball." time for "the sideshow." while the debail over childhood vaccinations have been divisive, conan o'brien came up with an absurd solution last night, one that allows parents greater choice, like chris christie sell he wants at the same time maintaining public health standar

michael sheehan is a terrorism expert and a distinguished fellow at combatting terrorism center at westd fillas kuragi from the london science. and i'll start with the atlantic piece that seems to imply that isis' motive is an apommo liptic one and they want to create this war with the west. is that accurate or more accurate to say they are an old-fashioned group seeking territory and power? >> actually it is a false thesis because there is a big difference conceptually between the so-called islamic state and al qaeda central. while al qaeda targeted the far ep emmy meaning the united states and european allies until june 2014 the target of the so-called isis or islamic state was basically arab and muslim sectarian based regimes in iraq and syria and a major concept you'll difference even though since june 2014 this particular distinction between the far enemy, the united states and the allies and the near enemy has been blurred. now isis or the so-called islamic state is waging war against both the near enemy, meaning arab and muslim rulers and the western powers because the united sta

john oregan, in applying linguistics at the institute of education, and michael sheehan. let's listen now, all of us to an audio excerpt from that video. it's brief, so pay special attention to the sound, the tone of the militant's voice. >> recently you've seen us on the hills of hasham. that wasn't much. doctor, what's your assessment of that person? you have to play sherlock holmes here. >> well, i think that while this may not be an american accent of the kind that i've been listens to on your show for the past few minutes, it's definitely an americanized accent. i would say this is somebody who could well have been educated in the states for some time. he might have a migrant to the states, maybe came in hi teens, so he's had a u.s. education, but he will have retained aspects of his first language accent. that's what's showing through on the tape. but nevertheless, he gives all the indications of having been exposed to a lot of american english. now, if he hasn't been to the states, i would say that he may well have had an education in an american international scho

congressman brian higgins, democrat of new york serving on the homeland security committee and michael sheehan, head of operations at the pentagon. thank you for being here. >> good to be here. >> congressman, how concerned are you about the people in the u.s. and the people in the u.s. going to fight for isis? >> well we are very concerned. obviously the isis propaganda machine is working. it's drawing people to syria, to iraq. but they are being told explicitly if they can't make that trip to undertake home-grown terrorism. this is a real problem. the good thing is our counterterrorism officials are working diligently and in counterterrorism you never get credit for what didn't happen. >> congressman, we just heard the fbi director say, and you repeat, they are told if they can't get to the states to kill people where you are? >> that's what you're hearing. and that's a meaj juror problem. i think the good thing is in this case and in others, local law enforcement agencies are able to thwart terrorist activity before it's actually executed. terrorism is a strategy of the weak. they seek to i

ambassador michael sheehan joins me now.ntly the head of special operations at the pentagon, long history of working on these issues and now at the combatting terrorism center at west point. ambassador, how does the death of this american hostage impact american policy in this conflict going forward? >> first of all, let me say about kayla, she's a saint in my view, she served god and died serving god and we all pray for her. the impact on the policy is real. when people are killed like this or held hostage, it affects political decision-making. i've been in rooms where those decisions are made. the risks that people take. the president doesn't want to wake up some morning and see an american captive being held in a cage being threatened to be burned alive. in order to accomplish our policy objectives we have to take risks and move people in those zones. >> one thing we were talking about, the president so far seems to have said we're not going into the fray this is going to be done by proxy as much as fobl and the way in wh

. >> and nbc news contributor michael sheehan served as deputy commissioner of counterterrorism afterjoins me now. how seriously do we take these threats? they may not be operational but could be inspirational. >> regarding the somali community, good news and bad news we've known for seven or eight years a lot of somalis have gone over to join the fight over there and serious jihadis who have gone over there. they've never seen any cell activity when we've returned or be active when they return or haven't seen many returnees, pretty much a one way ticket. three of those somalis have become suicide bombers in somalia when they got over there. the threat is a lone wolf inspired by this call for an attack to pick up a weapon that they could get at any gun show and go in the mall and start firing it up like alal sha bab did in kenya. >> they did manage in kenya, which is closer to their home base right across the border that the westlake mall was horrific, 67 people died in that and went on for days. so they have operational ability but never so far across the ocean here in the homeland.

i blip president obama is committed to do that when it's possible, but as michael sheehan said, it'socate these people and figure out what to do. whether we're going to sort of go in, you know, with ground troops and take on the military responsibility ourselves, that's exactly what isis would want. i don't think we can conquer isis if the regional power and forces don't figure out on their own that it's most in their interest to do this with our help. >> i agree. baghdadi doesn't want his head blown off, either. thank you, david. this is a very fliblting situation. >>> up next president obama rejected an autographed poster from michael jordan because jordan misspelled his first name. this is a bit of a tiff, and that's where it belongs this is "hardball," the place for politics. they're still after me. get to the terminal across town. are all the green lights you? no. it's called grid iq. the 4:51 is leaving at 4:51. ♪ they cut the power. it'll fix itself. power's back on. quick thinking traffic lights and self correcting power grids make the world predictable. thrillingly predictab

. >> i want to bring in michael sheehan on the form former assistant secretary of defense, knows the the likely next step for the pentagon and for the u.s. military response here? can the u.s. afford to have hostage situations like this playing out at the rate they seem to be? >> this is a good point, ronan. i think that the americans are going to continue their air campaign, no question about that. i'm sure they'll going to be looking very carefully what would happen if they had a downed pilot and how they would recuse him. we have enormous capability to do that. one of the most important impacts of isis using a kim ofcouple of persons and brutally murdering them on world media, it will intimidate the american forces and others from operating inside syria and inside the lines of isis, which is very important in order to mobilize the ground forces that take on isis. the americans or no european country would want one of their pilots or soldiers held on media like this and burned alive. i think it does have an impact. isis knows what it's doing when it uses this graphic terrorism to tr

michael sheehan is on the phone who previously worked in intelligence and state department and other agencies and for the nypd on intelligence and counterterrorism. michael, this is a huge tragedy, not only for jordan but fort anti-isis coalition? >> yes, andrea this is very calculated, one of the most brutal killings i can think of. i never in 30 years of dealing with terrorism heard of such a technique of burning someone alive. slitting somebody's throat is less painful way to go. it's how they kill a goat or some animal. it's less painful. this is really ratchetting it up it's a risk by isis to try to invoke terror in the hearts of one of the most important allies jordan. it might back fire. this is a type of action that shows an absolute criminal brutality and you can use the word evil intent of this organization. i think this could be a turning point for how jordan responds to this. and obviously, with extra aid, which they need so desperately and secretary kerry was providing today, is part of that. as he understands well that jordan is at the center of this and critical ally. >

. >> jonathan deens the and ayman mohyeldin and michael sheehan, served as deputy commissioner of counterterrorism the 9/11 attacks. thanks for being here. jonathan, what is the latest you are hering from investigators there in new york about the arrests of these three men suspected of wanting to join isis? >> what we've heard from prosecutors, two of the three men confessed, admitted they were indeed intent on wanting to travel overseas to join isis and bought plane tickets and one was trying to board a flight to kennedy and other the had the flight book and they were involved. that according to prosecutors. we're also hearing, the fbi and immigration agents are running around speaking with others who are associated with these men to see if anyone else might have been connected to this plot. right now it appears there are three core actors one a money man and two men who allegedly wanted to travel overseas and join. but again, they are looking to see if any others were involved. most concerning is not just the fact they wanted to travel overseas but some of the statements that were made we heard

. >> joining me now is nbc contributor michael sheehan, ambassador at large for counterterrorism as wellred officer in the u.s. army special forces. we're awfully glad to have you here, michael. as you know the white house laid out these three main focuses to fight extremism, building awareness, countering extremist narratives and emphasizing community-led intervention. if you do all that does it do the job? >> i think i would focus on the second one because it's all about the narrative, in my experience. i've been studying these guys for the better part of 20 years. they come from all different -- some are rich, some are middle class. it's not necessarily about jobs. it's a narrative to join a cause, to go to fight to create an islamic state, to fight and throw the westerners out of islamic lands and overthrow what they consider apostate regimes, many of which are our allies. it's the narrative. it's the narrative. >> okay. the white house on its part really emphasized the community aspect of this so much so that the administration said that the fbi director was not invited to the event