well, let's bring in michael swain. he's the director of the east asia program at the quincy institute and joins us now from only in maryland. michael, 2 hours and 17 minutes while it's quite a long chat. should we be reading anything into the length of that call given the tensions between washington and beijing? no, i don't think so. i don't think this was a particularly long conversation between the 2 leaders. it's if i remember correctly it's, it's about in the average of what has occurred in the past. this is the 5th time these 2 leaders of talking the spoken with each other and for. busy all these different re, repetitions there's not a lot of come out of it. my opinion. on surprisingly, taiwan was on the agenda. nancy place he's plan ship seems to be coming at around the inopportune time. that pop says never bailey, quite an opportunity time. well i think that's right, people just people criticize those who are opposed to natur blows. he's visit by saying she's a member of congress, and other congressional delegati

michael swain's, the director of the station program at the quincy institute, and he says, the 2 sides. and yet i've talked that mean anything. there has been a continuing dissatisfaction on both sides, that neither is really addressing the concerns and interests of the other. it's really in some ways, the sort of dialogue of the deaf. you have these exchanges of talking points, which we've had again, in the case of the 2 precedent speaking with each other which are fairly pro forma . but the problem is that neither side regards the other statements is being entirely credible. and that's because there's been a whole host of different factors over the last many years, beginning in the trumpet, ministration and the she, jim ping administration. that really lowered the sense that the words and deeds of both countries are really interaction. there is a greater sense that underneath the positive statements that are being said, when they are being said, and that's not very often, that the 2 sides are really still just maneuvering against each other in a very, very 0 some way. and we've got t