. >>> michael tanner is senior fellow at the cato institute. thanks for joining us, michael.you could be a civil libertarian and argue the welfare state has grown too far. 15% americans are being fed by the government. what do we tell a grandmother like katherine when she's going to see a benefit cut like this? >> well, don't forget that the "s" in supplemental nutrition assistance program, the s.n.a.p. program which is what food stamps is officially known is stands for supplemental. no one is supposed to be living solely on food stamps. and in fact, very few people on the program are living solely on food stamps. they almost all have either other welfare programs or outside income in bringing it in. you know, this is a program that has grown from being an $18 billion program as recently as 2000 to being$2000 to being i a program today. surely, a 5% cutback is not going to create the great american famine. >> so conservatives say this isn't really a cut. we're returning to the way things were just a few years ago. sort of like last year when democrats argued they weren't real

michael tanner on the under belly of this bee yo are not getting much news on what is going on. >> essentiallynce company to keep costs down, to participate in the networks are cutting back on who they cover, how much they pay hospitals and doctors, and result is that networks are shrinking, many of e best hospitals and best providers are no longer partipating in network that the insurance companies provide. that means that if you are one of those people forced to change your insurance plan, your new plan may not cover you in some of the best institutions in the country. neil: all right, a lot of people, god forbid if they have cancer, or a neurological disease, they need the treatments and images and that, they go to the hospitals for, that now these hospitals are not a part of that, you are in a world of hurt? >> you can pay out of network. if are your network does not cover say sloan-kettering, you can pay out of pocket. new york state not a sung el single insurance plan on exchanges pays for any cost out of network, you pay the entire cost yourself out of pocket. neil: is there an option o