one of them you talked to is michelle rhee. what did you learn from michelle rhee about being a leader when the message that you have to deliver is terribly unpopular? i mean, whatever one thinks of michelle rhee, like her or loathe her or agree or disagree, she expressed her point of view; she stood on that when it was very unpopular in washington. >> she has moved the conversation about the education problems along greatly. one of the things that really impressed me very early in the conversation with michelle is that she talked about her first job as a teacher in an inner city school. she admits that, at the very beginning, she wasn't a very effective teacher, but when she saw how the opportunities that these children had or didn't have were so determined by where they were born, to whom they were born; it just really offended her sense of right and wrong. it seemed un-american to her and it was clear to me that she's doing it for the right reasons. as i say in the book many times, she doesn't just know the what and the how.

here with me now is michelle rhee, a sometimes controversial former head of the d.c. school system. t, an organization focusing on changing public education in america. let's take a quick look at the state rankings, michelle, from the american legislative exchange council. massachusetts, vermont and new jersey rank at the top, while louisiana, south carolina, west virginia all rank at the bottom. now, the ranking goes to 51 because d.c.'s school district is counted separately. so, some parents are actually moving their kids from one state to the other just because of the schools. they're picking untheir whole family, michelle, and doing this. do you think this is a good idea? should parents leave or do you think they should maybe try to stick around and help fix the school that's in their community? >> well, look, it's the reality that parents face. when you are looking at your kid and you know that they're going to school every day and not getting the kind of education that they deserve, then you're going to do whatever it takes to make sure that they're getting that. and if you are

same time that they were taking money from unions millions of dollars they were also representing michelle rhee who's one of the most prominent anti teach you union proponents in this country so they were taking money from both sides at the same time supporting s.p. five which is the was the bill in ohio to outlaw collective bargaining rights got repealed. wow so i mean ok here we are and i mentioned it briefly in the setup that unions have traditionally been the funders of the democratic party just because democratic party has traditionally been a political party looking out for working people we now and pose. citizens united we have corporations that can spend unlimited amounts of money so the right has boosted their fund raising while unions have declined so union dues are dropped so unions are operating with much smaller budgets is this a wise sort of investment to be reaching out to p.r. firms rather that i mean what else could they be doing with that money well i think certainly put it on the story you know there are p.r. firms that only represent the union side and do good work although

michelle rhee and others who are liberals, who are pushing for this reform, and maybe there's a kernelies can do together at the federal level to keep building on this even while they're tearing each other apart. >> even as we talk, chris -- i was going to say, even to expand on david's point, as we sit here tonight, rahm emanuel, the mayor of chicago, is locked in negotiations with the teachers union. and it's going to go down to the wire. he's being very tough on them. let me just correct a little math, if i can, as well, on msnbc, a mistake i made on nbc, one of the reasons i'm a journalist, because math was not my strongest point. but here's a man who is the same age as the vice presidential candidate, paul rye nl, and i said paul ryan when he was born, ronald reagan was in his second year of his presidency, it turns out i was wrong on that. david's math was as strong as mine, he didn't correct me, but in fact, paul ryan was in the fifth grade when ronald reagan was in his second term. he's very young, but you can see he's also a very practiced politician. >> that's great, a good t