this is mike derheim, who heads a minnesota tech firm; sharon virts mozer, whose virginia- based company runs administration for the federal government, and karl schledwitz of memphis, who's turned jerky and hot dogs into opportunity. seems to be i' kind of a mature business. how do you find growth there. >> the actual space is growing. there are snacks, beef jerky really started growing with the atkins diet craze. it's probably quadrupled in the last two years. we've been able to grow by buying under utilized manufacturing facilities and centralizing the back office and putting robust sales operation together filling up the plants. and that creates employment and creates more profitability. it's no different than an office building or a shopping center. if it's half empty it doesn't do very well cash flow wise but you take that same exact building and fill it up and it cash flows. >> you work with the federal government. again, not exactly what one would consider a growth market. how have you been able to find growth. >> we found that the demand is going up to space and how the economy'