he does that through this guy mike duffey. the career folks tell mike duffey in response, hey, this could be illegal, this has to go through the lawyers. and so what happens next? well, mike duffey takes over this job himself. so the career officials who are telling him this might be illegal won't be the ones being ordered to do it. question, did have you any conversations with anyone other than mr. duffey about the fact that this apportion of the approval authority was being taken away from you should answer, certainly from my staff. question, what was their reaction? answer, they were surprised and they were concerned. question, in your career at o 346789 b or otherwise, are you aware of any other political appointee being given the responsibility to authorize apportionments as happened here with mr. duffey? answer, no, i'm not aware. question, am i correct that never in your career at omb has that precise situation occurred? mr. sandy, that's correct. first it's the pont himself who orders the hold on military aid to ukrain

a lot of pushback from the ukrainian government and outrage from the ukrainian government, that mike duffey signs a document that would provide a chunk of funding on a weekly basis to ukraine. but the democrats are contending that this violates federal law because they say the law requires very clearly that when congress appropriates money, the administration is required to spend it. the administration has pushed back on that notion, but this is an interesting development because of the fact that it happened on july 25th when the first written time they came in and notified this money would be delayed. recall we heard witness testimony that said on july 25th from laura cooper, one of the top officials at the pentagon, he said the ukrainian embassy was inquiring. placing a hold officially on that money. >> that does blow a hole in the republicans' argument that ukraine had no idea that the money was being withheld just yet. they did on that very day of the phone call. very significant developments. manu, thank you. >>> presidents are not kings. that's the message first conveyed by the foundi