. >> well, i think it's significant because mike needham says let's not tie defunding obama care which we at heritage really want, to the debt ceiling. so he said that on the debt ceiling. and basically the koch brothers are saying that in their letter as it regards government shutdown. so right there you have the koch brothers pulling back from the whole ted cruz obama care crusade, which they might not have been with to begin request. heritage was a finding member of the let's get obama care, let's get rid of obama care caucus. however, they can read the numbers. they see the poll numbers. and more importantly, they worry about the global economic impact. don't forget that the republican party, despite all the tea party talk and despite that the chamber of commerce as a lobby group doesn't mean anything, they care about business, they care about profits. and they're looking at their bottom line in terms of polls and in terms of profits. >> what's the stronger impulse in the republican caucus? wealth or hatred? we do know in many ways, not in every way, the republican party has been b