who better to speak to that than is mike pence himself. by putting him on this witness list, you know, they're preserving their right to call mike pence to testify during a pivotal trial in this case. look it remains unclear when that might happen. the judge hasn't set a trial date yet. mike pence, this is different from his cooperation in the federal case. he's not testified under oath in any capacity in the georgia case, but take a listen to what mike pence said when he was asked about his willingness to testify in the federal case. >> i have no plans to testify, but, look, we'll always -- we'll always comply with the law, but look, i want to tell you, i don't know what the path of this indictment will be. there are profound issues around this pertaining to the first amendment. freedom of speech. >> now at the same time after trump was indicted in georgia, though, pence said this, despite what the former president and his allies have said for now more than 2.5 years and continue to insist the georgia election was not stolen. i had no rig

he considers mike pence to be disloyal. s question from my vast studying of law and order television show, is this something you think that could influence what we hear from pence, is there such a thing as trump's lawyers saying he's a hostile witness? >> you know, i think there's an argument that mike pence is a hostile witness or will be viewed by the defense as a hostile witness. why? because donald trump on the front end relentlessly pressured mike pence to violate the law, to join donald trump's corrupt conspiracy to commit offenses against the united states and defraud the united states, which is one of the charges that trump now stands convicted of federally. and donald trump has continued to attack mike pence. so there's an argument to be made by the defense on cross examination of mike pence that you're just saying all these horrible things about our client donald trump because he said horrible things about you. the nice thing is mike pence will be able to fall back on the record, both the way he acted and conducted

in addition, mike pence in many ways is an exhibit. just by being there.ause he was on the same ticket as the former president. and he was not concluding there was fraud in the election, and he models for the jury how you should behave when you've lost an election. he would be a very very strong witness for a prosecutor, whether it's the federal prosecutors or the state prosecutors. >> lisa? >> i think everything that andrew just said i agree with. the other thing that mike pence can obviously talk about is the direct pressure campaign on him and how that put him in literal physical danger. you know, one of the things i think about in the federal complaint not the georgia complaint is that literally, trump has a tweet at 2:24 p.m. on january 6th, at 2:25, that's when mike pence has to be forcibly removed from the chamber by the secret service. so i think he can also speak to the very human aspect of having been targeted by donald trumps and the danger that it put not only him in but people much further removed from the white house than he was, like ruby fr

former vice president mike pence, on a coalition course for a historic courtroom standoff. >>> and aampage across two cities leaves six people dead in texas. the grisly killings at five different crime scenes. i'm sara sidner with john berman and kate bolduan. this is "cnn news central." ♪ >>> a dictator for a day. donald trump in iowa last night offered ample -- offered ample opportunity by a fredly host and audience to make clear he won't lean into his authoritarian tendencies if he wins the election, an opportunity that trump took and did this -- >> do you in any way have any plans whatsoever if reelected president to abuse power, to break the law, to use the government to go after people? >> you mean like they're using right now. >> also in all of that asked about being a dictator. we will get to morph that in a moment. "politico's" take on it all, a presidential front runner ideally musing about being a dictator even for a day is not normal stuff. also not normal is this, a former vice president possibly testifying against his former boss who is facing multiple indictments for t

look, mike pence is no hero. i think we all know that he has just the based himself, and really made himself so pathetic in a way that was really -- everything trump touches. so i do think it was pretty bleak. i do not think anyone celebrating mike pence. i think the leopard -- the party that we're the leopards eat your face have it in his face. >> i was going to say, you kind of saw that in what i would say it was just a pathetic attempt at a presidential run that lasted all of a hot minute. congressman, this week in rio public remarks, at a d. c. judge -- who actually spearheaded the judiciary's response, 11th at the capitol on january the 6th, warned that the u.s. faces an authoritarian threat. she did not name trump directly, but i think for all of, us i think anyone who watches us are follows, it is pretty clear who she was referring to. no one has had a better view of a january 6th through the eyes of our legal system, and prosecutions then judge howell. how serious should we be taking her warnings? >> we s

so if i'm a prosecutor, i see mike pence absolutely as a witness. not as a slam dunk but as an important part of the story i'd willingly put on the stand. >> if pence testifies, it would be remarkable to see that moment to see him testifying in court against his former boss, the then president of the united states. aid for these other officials and the same thing for these other former trump officials as well. >> no question. it would be remarkable if the former vice president does testify saying for the former attorney general, bill barr. i just want to underscore something ellie said about his being an imperfect witness. while it is true that he was a firsthand witness, he had conversations with donald trump. he has said that trump was wrong to do this. we have seen mike pence straddle his relationship with trump and january 6th as ellie pointed out, over and over again. cross-examination by trump lawyers could be something the prosecutors take into consideration before they actually call him. >> it's important point. paula, part of their executiv

for instance, if you add a comma to "hang mike pence" it becomes "hang, mike pence." [ laughter ] pullp a cushion and chill out. our show, for those who've not been here in person, is located in the heart of hollywood. we are right down the street from the world-famous hollywood bowl. which is a great concert venue. they have a lot of variety. there's classical music. this month alone, kiss played the bowl, followed by mariah carey. so we positioned ourselves outside the venue for both shows to conduct what we call "the poll at the bowl." here's how it works. we are going to show you a fan, on concertgoer. you have to guess whether they're there to see kiss or mariah carey. okay? here we go. >> i'm jose, i'm from san francisco, the other city. >> who are you here to see, kiss or mariah carey? >> jimmy: is jose there to see mariah carey or kiss? what do you think? unanimous? kiss? all right. >> mariah carey, the goat. >> really? i would have pegged you for a kiss fan. >> definitely not. >> no, you're mariah all the way. >> mariah all the way. >> what's your favorite mariah song? >> "und

but mike pence also brings the criminal intent because he said, you know, donald trump said to me when criminal scheme, you know what your problem is, mike, you're too honest. what does that do? it tells us -- it puts us inside donald trump's head. not a fun place to be, but he knew that what he was asking mike pence to do, required dishonesty, criminal intent proof. >> there's another piece here because one of the questions that we've always had, i think we talked about this in all of our conversations, is whether or not you can tie trump to the actual violence, right, whether or not trump and the violence are directly connected or just infer ren shall. let me read it to you first. donald trump encouraged rioting after the 2020 election. the department of justice -- we're going to switch the doj case, plans to argue at the trial, prosecutors plan to introduce text messages, between a trump campaign staffer and a campaign attorney who was at a vote counting site in detroit, michigan, in which the campaign employee allegedly encouraged rioting and other methods of obstruction when he le

>> frankly, i think it's mike pence. e conversations they had with him legally about investigations, about whether there was or wasn't fraud. it's pence who alone was in the room and had the conversations with him. remember there was the exchange that went something like wouldn't it be cool, mike, if you could be the one who decides who gets to be the next president. because mike pence was the only one in the room who heard that, i think he's the most crucial witness and frankly the most damaging. for four years he was trump's most loyal deputy. for him to turn coat and say these are the facts, this is the truth, i think will be very persuasive with the jury. >> given all that, i want you to pick up on what tim offered us, the politics happening in georgia and the timeline that means we're up against. i know you're watching the d.a.'s office very closely. what do you expect to see or hear next? any sense of an official trial date? >> one more thing about pence, too, in terms of his testimony, there's an entering wring cur

obviously, staff for johnson did ultimately contact mike pence's office asking if he could bring by these certificates. that offer was rejected as we know and pence ultimately certified legitimate election results. but again, it does sort of underscore this idea there were members of congress involved in a last minute push to make sure these certificates go t to d.c. on time and in the hands of mike pence. >> great to have this reporting. it is fascinating to read into the details of this. we'll continue to delve into it. good job by you and your team. we have our legal experts here to break this down. norm, what do you make of the fact that it goes into so many details of how extensive these efforts were that they were even considering chartering a private plane to ensure that these files, these fake electors, reached washington in time for january 6th. >> well, those details are going to be very important for jack smith to prove his case. for state prosecutors like fani willis who has charged this same conduct to prove their case. and the reason those details about the elaborate plan to

former vice president, mike pence. let's get some analysis now. caroline, thanks for sharing part of your afternoon. he has a witness before a federal grand jury, part of the federal election subversion case. how could his testimony impact the case in fulton county georgia, specifically? >> that's right, boris. we've known for a while that he was called by jack smith's special grand jury in d.c. for the federal case, as it pertains specifically to georgia, i think funny willis could use mike pence to her advantage. it's not surprising that fani willis would like his testimony in her state rico case. >> another hotly contested thing has been claims by trump's team of them scheduling the start date for august, you know, election interference, they've called that ridiculous. how do you see it and also, whether trump's team, has any potential mechanism to try to delay beyond august? >> yeah, i mean i think that they will try to delay beyond august and they've got good arguments. what's not a good legal argument is to say they prefer to be tried later

insurrection when the seeds on the capitol was underway, he repeatedly demanded vice president mike pence refuse to perform his constitutional duty and by calling senators to persuade them to stop the counting of electoral votes. these actions constituted overt, voluntary, and direct participation in the insurrection. president trump's expressed efforts over several months exhorting his supporters to march to the capitol to prevent what he alleged was a fraud where indisputably overt and voluntary. from the supreme court justices yesterday who said the former president cannot appear on the primary ballot. it does not address the general

>> the mike pence camp is surprised, trying to figure out what prosecutors want to question him about. i think we saw this coming, specifically using the reference of pence as the potential witness to try to get the judge to facilitate the handover of evidence at the federal case to the trump team in georgia. both sides reacting differently, maybe different expectations coming in. as of now, pence can be called to testify once we get to that stage, the question is when will the trial start? >> possibilities? the range? >> the prosecutors want to start august 2024, trump wants to keep it from happening until he leaves office. that's about a five year difference. >> five year difference between the two, there you have it. zac cowan, thank you so much. >> the colorado supreme court is set to begin in oral argument in a closely watched case that aims to keep the president trump off the ballot in that state. it centers on the u.s. constitution's ban on insurrection it's holding office. the colorado district judge found trump engaged in insurrection on january 6th, 2021 but they argue the b

and there mike pence for sure will be a witness. i think like bill barr as well will be a witness. regardless of the baggage and they do have significant baggage in terms of their toeing the line for the trump administration, in many ways that makes them better witnesses in terms of their credibility. and as i've said about mike pence, he is sort of a really devastating witness it and also an exhibit. because you can't compare somebody who had the exact same interest as donald trump was on the ballot, who had every interest if there was fraud in the election to say it, who is modeling what you do in this country when you lose. this is like what parents, or any normal parent's teaching a child, which is if you lose that's it, it's over, you take your bumps and you go home. exactly. so i think he will be quite a strong witness. i think the same is true with bill barr, especially given so much a much he did for donald trump and certainly i and other people in the mueller investigation were very aware of how much he did. but there was a line he was not willing to cross. >> given the sc

you know, had they been pressuring mike pence to look at this and say, okay, there's claims of fraud, there's an alternate slate available, i'd like to just not certify it today, kick it back to state and say let's take ten-day pause and verify these claims of fraud, i think that that plan would have been okay. but the other two plans would be for mike pence to take a look at these two slates and say, well, i think i like this slate so i'm just going declare that trump won all these states, and if mike pence were to do that and then just simply declare on january 6th that trump is the duly elected president, i think that would be problematic. the other alternative is for him to look at it and say i don't know which one it is, so i'm going to disregard the state entirely. neither candidate gets the 270 and then it goes over to the house. i think that's also a problematic outcome. but to be clear, everybody that i've represented and every witness that i've talked to through my time, they all were consistent that their understanding of the plan was that first choice of just push for a de

and there mike pence for sure will be a witness. i think bill barr also will be a witness. and regardless of the baggage, and they have significant baggage in terms of their towing the line for the trump administration. in many ways that makes them better witnesses in terms of their credibility. and as i've said about mike pence is he is both a really devastating witness and also an exhibit because you can compare somebody who had the exact same interest as donald trump who is on the ballot, who had every interest if there was fraud in the election to say it, who's modeling what you do in this country when you lose, i mean this is like -- this is what parents -- any normal parent is teaching, you know, a child, which is if you lose, that's it. it's over. you take -- >> this is how you lose. >> right, exactly. and so i think he'll have quite a struggle with this. i think the same is true with bill barr especially given how much he did for donald trump, and certainly other people in the mueller investigation are very aware of how much he did. but there's a line he was not wil

vice president mike pence for his, or the ex attorney general, bill barr. republicans in georgia, including governor brian kemp and secretary of state brad raffensperger. this large roster signals the -- the d.a., fani willis, and her fellow prosecuting to addressing what was already a sprawling case. the case is 15 defendants, which is -- 19 after four them already took plea deals. they have been accused of engaging in a racketeering conspiracy to overturn the results of georgia's 2020 election. all of whom, including donald trump, and have a originally pleaded not guilty. and, most defendants in the case have the optional possibility of a plea deal, the guardian has reported that trump, mark meadows, and rudy giuliani will be ineligible for a deal, signaling that the prosecutors consider there being targets. my pel is back with me. dana, i'll srt with you on this roun and let's start with this trial date trump's lawyer steve sato said last week that the constitution supremacy clause would delay this trial until 2029, if trump were to be elected again in 2

i think mike pence has spoken out about some of the things that donald trump said. >> david, when youat this and the comments that trump is making overall on the campaign trail, i mean, this weekend we also saw him invoke the russian leader president putin and his comments where he has said that trump's indictments are just him being, you know, persecuted by his political opponent, that it's proof of the u.s. is not the shining example of democracy that it thinks it is. obviously, putin isn't exactly a credible critic of the u.s. political system, but what did you make of those comments, given he was talking about president biden? >> listen. trump admires dictators. i mean, it's just that simple. he doesn't even hide it. not only did he approvingly quote vladimir putin on the quality of american democracy at the very moment when his chief political opponent, who had been imprisoned on trumped up charges, has gone missing. he also praised kim jong-un because kim jong-un was very nice to him. tonight, the u.s. sending its top military and intelligence officials overseas as a rift with i

insurrection when the seeds on the capitol was underway, he repeatedly demanded vice president mike pence refuse to perform his constitutional duty and by calling senators to persuade them to stop the counting of electoral votes. these actions constituted overt, voluntary, and direct participation in the insurrection. president trump's expressed efforts over several months exhorting his supporters to march to the capitol to prevent what he alleged was a fraud where indisputably overt and voluntary. from the supreme court justices yesterday who said the former president cannot appear on the primary ballot. it does not address the general election ballot. we went your reaction to this news this morning. on the front pages of the national newspapers, the former president was in iowa yesterday campaigning for 2024. he did not directly address this ruling. here's a little bit of what he had to say. [video] >> it is no wonder crooked joe biden and the lunatics are desperate to stop us by any means necessary. they are willing to violate the constitution at levels never seen before to win this el

to deliver these physical copies of the fake certificates, because the idea was mike pence had to bring those certificates to the house floor in order for them to be counted, if he actually went through with the plan to reject biden's legitimate electors. so really taking it behind the scenes here of what happened and even in just the days leading up to january 6th, and how this fake elector plot does tie and with the broader effort to pressure mike pence and also overturn the election overall. >> zak, how could this all fit into jack smith's criminal case against trump? >> reporter: yeah, we know that this episode is brightly ruffle ernst in jack smith's indictment of trump. it's remaining to be seen how this might fit into a trial or it even plays a large role. we do know from sources that ken chesebro has reached out to jack smith and effectively offered to cooperate, but he has not heard back yet from the special counsel's office, which is an interesting sort of radio silence, left on road situation there. he's an unindicted coconspirator in the federal case. obviously we know too t

if you look at the paragraph before, that's about donald trump tweeting about mike pence, all he haso do is send it back. the paragraph afternoon is about how donald trump called mike pence and pressured him, in jack smith's word, to fraudulently reject the electors. this is part of jack smith's case, and this whole last-minute scramble to get the ballots is tucked into a section about trump and his behavior that day. >> yeah, we'll see what role it could play in a trial. >>> thanks to all of you for the great reporting. >>> just ahead we'll go live to new hampshire, where nikki haley tonight is trying to clean up her remarks about the civil war. what she is saying now that she does not say yesterday. >>> tonight republican presidential candidate nikki haley says it's a given that slavery was a cause of the civil war. that's not what she want last night when a voter in new hampshire asked her that very question, and left her scrambling to explain herself today. eva mckend is on the ground and was there last night. >> of course we know it was about slavery. unquestioned, always the ca

let's discuss more now with former adviser to vice president mike pence, olivia troye, and former fox news host and journalist geraldo rivera. great to see you. olivia, let me start with you first. hi, geraldo. thanks for coming on. hi, olivia. olivia, what's your reaction what you hear trump -- i mean he had a chance to clean this up. he's had all week to this clean up. last night in new york he doubled down and said he would be a dictator for one day. of course you have to add the caveat, you know, somebody is a dictator for a day, they can say i'm the dictator on day two and day three and so on. but your reaction? >> yeah, i would say one day is all it takes to do all the damage is what i would say. look, he's telling his plans out loud. i think he's doubling down because he meant what he said. that's how he plans to conduct the government, and i think those plans were actually sort of somewhat put in place during the first time around when he was in the oval office. and i mean you want to talk about the weaponization of the federal government, he did that. i mean he used doj. he u

mike pence brought the sense of calm to the evangelical community.s useful to think about what is donald trump's v vulnerabilit vulnerabilities. does he need someone that can appeal to the swing voters that may have voted for him once and then voted for biden and rethinking the choice that they made in 2020 and may be ready to come back home to him. he needs someone to address those problem areas. that might look different than 2016. >> charles: certainly might. he's doing well right now in the swing state polls. once again, thanks a lot, sarah. talk to you soon. >> thank you. >> charles: all right, folks. will the sit-down in mexico cut down on the border surge? former acting ice director ron vitiello is here with us. with more migrants researching in, taxpayers of big cities are shelling out. right, kelly? >> yeah, this is one of 27 migrant shelters in the city. i'll break down how much it will cost the state coming up. narrator: time is running out to give a year-end gift like no other, a gift that can help st. jude children's research hospital sa

>> mike pence he'll testify. i don't think he has speech or e debate. i think it's like eric swalwell and other people who were there at thed time that this include and maybe scott perry as well. they're still wrangling over the phone. >> harry litman and paul butler, thank you so much for starting usan off tonight. >>> coming up, the push to take donald trump off the ballots succeeded in colorado, but failed in michigan like ohio state. what it means about the election and says about the institutional guardrails of our country next. a guardrails of our country next i got this $1,000 camera for only $41 on dealdash. dealdash.com, online auctions since 2009. this playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see how much you can save. >>> should donald trump be disqualified from running for president for his attempt tuesday overturn

and his foot soldiers erupted into chants of hang mike pence, which was kind of okay with donald trump, according to witnesses. so yeah, we don't just rely on media accounts as prosecutors. we have to drill down, get the data, have to get the cell site information, which will tell us not precisely, but in a certain area where the phone was at the time it was being used to post these inflammatory messages. so all of that has to be packaged up and presented to the jury during the course of the trial. >> yeah, was it in his tiny little fingers or not. let's talk about this supreme court case. which is going to be in some ways hell for these justices because it put them right back in the center of politics. either way, there's going to be a lot of people mad about what they decide. seven democrats are now saying that clarence thomas specifically ought to recuse himself. that seem logical given his wife was one of the insurrections that was part of the plot. chances he does it? >> no. absolutely no. clarence thomas is unrepentant about his own ethical issues and problems. i don't believe th

if it is not ambiguous that he was called on — if it is not ambiguous that he was called on by mike penceelection, does there need _ certify the election, does there need to— certify the election, does there need to be more due process on that? that happened quite a long time ago, nearly— that happened quite a long time ago, nearly three years ago in a few weeks — nearly three years ago in a few weeks if— nearly three years ago in a few weeks. if there needs to be due process, — weeks. if there needs to be due process, the due process should not take that _ process, the due process should not take that long. it should be incredibly clear because what you've 'ust incredibly clear because what you've just said. _ incredibly clear because what you've just said, reading out from that judgment, is unambiguous and stuff that due _ judgment, is unambiguous and stuff that due process should be finished by that due process should be finished tty now _ that due process should be finished by now 50 — that due process should be finished b now, ., , that due process should be finished b now, .,, , , t

is this sort of indicating that mike pence may actually come and testify against donald trump? is that the surprise witness that he might refer to here? and what might be the impact? >> at this point mike pence will be no surprise he'll testify and i don't think he had speech or debate. i think is like eric swalwell and other people who were there at the time that this includes and maybe scott perry is well, though they are still wrangling over the phone. >> harry litman and paul butler, thank you so much for starting us off tonight. >> coming up, the push to take donald trump off the ballot succeeded in colorado, but fails in michigan. what it means for the election and what it says about the institution of guardrails in our country, next. >>> guardrails in our country, next. our country, next. >> hey everybody, w. kamau bell here. they say that america is the land of the free. but right now, people in the u.s. are seeing their freedoms taken away at an alarming rate. freedoms some of us take for granted. the right to vote. equal access to health care. book banning and other f

sometimes online everyone is like, oh my god, mike pence. that would be so exciting.ehind the scenes. but you're reminding folks in a case you might not want to go there. david kelley, good to see you, sir. >> nice to see you, too, ari. >> great to see you. >>> when we come back, we answer the question who is the person of the year? ear? [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ (carolers) ♪ iphone 15 pro, your husband deserves it! ♪ only pay for what you need. (mom) carolers? to tell me you want a new iphone? a better plan is verizon. (vo) for a limited time, turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. [city ambience sounds] [car screech] [car door slam] [camera shutter sfx] introducing ned's plaque psoriasis. [camera shutter sfx] he thinks his flaky, red patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. [ned?] it can help you get clearer skin and reduce itching and flaking. with no routi

on january 6th, the same can be said of vice president mike pence. who, despite four years of kowtowing to the president and not dissenting to -- with any of the things that a normal person would be provoked by, in the actions of the president of the united states, when president trump threatened, controlled, pressured, promised, and ultimately turned a mob against pens, hence did the right thing. he said, i will not violate my constitutional oath and file your instructions to delay, or disrupt the electoral college wrote vote obligation that i have. and pence, to his great headed credit in chris street, refuse to get in the limousine that the secret service had waiting p for him as the crowd chanted, t rampaging through the capital, "hang mike pence. hang mike pence." spurred on by the president of the united states. he refused to get in that limousine and said, i need to stay here. you may think it wise to drive me out of the capital for matters of security, so i am not getting in the car. i am staying here to do my constitutional duty. and i draw

and indeed calling out the insurrection but at 2:24 a tweet that targeted mike pence put him in danger of his life. the question is not so much the factual one, whether donald trump is -- did insurrection or even the legal one, whether it was 14th amendment insurrection. but what power do the states have particularly in the primary process under their own law to apply the 14th amendment. and that's why you're seeing these divergent views. michigan saying we don't. colorado saying we do. and now we'll get an answer from maine and perhaps the supreme court will weigh in and say whether colorado was correct. whether the 14th amendment can be executed by the state and whether there's other means such as congress doing it. >> norm it's so interesting how you answer that question because it illustrates how complicated that issue is, and how many different questions the u.s. supreme court could choose to take up. you brought up the issue of whether states have the power to cite the 14th amendment to keep people on or off the ballot there but what are the other questions that the supreme court

fake elector ballots to d.c., they were trying to get the fake ballots to former vice president mike pence and a final push to overturn the 2020 election, it involved a haphazard chain of messengers, staffers, and talk of even chartering a private jet, all of this to ensure the fake balance for michigan and wisconsin got to the capital in time for the electoral college certification on january 6th, 2021. emails and recording show new talk -- context in the unsuccessful fake elector plot, special counsel jack smith's criminal indictment against trump, marshall cohen broke the story out, what are we learning from these new recordings? >> we have known bits and pieces of this story but now we're getting the full picture that comes from can just borrow who was the architect. cnn has obtained recordings of his interviews and hundreds of emails that he also turned over , they are revealing the last minute scramble on the eve of january 6th to get those fake certificates to washington, d.c. , listen to this. this is a clip of can just borrow describing what happened when trump campaign officials

telling cnn that among the potential witnesses that fulton county says it may call to the stand, mike pence valencia has more on this. nick, what are you learning? >> this is fascinating because up until now, mike pence hasn't been much a part of the criminal proceedings and even in the evidence gathering stage during the special purpose grand jury he wasn't even called as a witness and now we are told that he's among this list of 150 names that are potential witnesses to testify against the former president at a future trial and it's interesting also because pence, he has been -- he was one of the longtime republican allies of the president that has publicly rebuked the comments by trump saying there was fraud here and pence has been full throated saying that the election was not stolen and infamously we all know that he was pressured by trump to overturn the election results by the election certification in 2021. now he could be a key witness here for the state. kate? >> you also spoke with the district attorney there in fulton county, fani willis last night. what did she have to say? >>

i thought these were mike pence's people.l figureheads around the country who are happening into this, this grievance and this fear, it's that people like mike pence are no longer sufficiently tough. they're not militant enough. they're not willing to fight for christianity in the way that trump is willing to fight for christianity, so that internal threat that is now the subject of so much ridicule and mocking and scorn from some of those movement figures, it is basically rooted in this idea that if pastors are unwilling to turn their pulpits into like fox news soapbox then they are not willing to really fight to defend their faith. and again, that divide inside the church has fractured congregations all across the country. and it's not showing any sign of letting up. >> mike pence, the guy who gave voters, evangelical voters the cover to vote for donald trump, never made it past 3%. i want to read from your book about trump being turned into a christ-like figure. a "new york times"/siena poll of the republican primary said

exclusive reporting on the georgia subversion case, prosecutors adding a big name to the witness list, mike pence. what can the former president reveal? israel said it has surrounded the house of hamas leader in gaza, benjamin netanyahu saying it's only a matter of time until we get him, we follow these major development stories all coming in right here to cnn news central. >>> in a few hours, four republicans will battle it out on the debate stage but once again, donald trump will not be there. we know how big of a lead trump has in his 24 primary field, a whopping 61% of republican voters favor the president in cnn's latest poll. this is a lead of over 40 points, trump is also dominating the discourse ahead of tonight's debate and that is because last night, he sidestepped a question or two really about whether he would abuse his power during his second term. trumps equivocating answer came after he suggested he use the presidency to go after his enemies. jessica dean is all over for us, we will say they are not going to be a dictator, most candidates would say. trump is not most candidates, i

the secret service had waiting for him as the crowd chanted rampaging through the capitol hang mike pence hang pence. spurred on by the president of the united states. he refused to get in that limousine, said, i need to stay here you may think it wise to drive me out of the out of the capitol for matters of security so i'm not getting in the car i'm staying here to do my concert, the tuition on duty. and i dropped between elliot richardson and mike pence on that day. and as we see mike pence in my view has no national political future but he has done the right thing. we were a pence away from chaos. if he had followed the injunctions of president trump. bob, you have a unique perspective. the trump are masterful. they're both and in book form, just extensive interviews with a sitting president. all of them are. so you have a into his mind, unlike most people in the country from all of those conversations. but you also had that view into richard nixon's mind. what comparisons what differences? what do you see there? well, it's lot. if you go to george washington's address in 17, whenever

guest: mike pence also had them. they turned them over right away but the issue in mar-a-lago with donald trump was that he did not turn them over for many months. it took a warrant that was executed and there were more documents. his lawyers signed a certification saying they've been turned over which was not true. videotape show boxes being moved around. it's the cover-up and obstruction that got him in trouble. host: next is robert in georgia, independent. caller: good morning. i just wanted to say that i'm very grateful that the creator let me be born here. this thing with trump's lawyers, letting history repeat itself. richard nixon to the same thing with the infamous tapes. he said there was no rush and they did rush. as a result, the tapes were entered and he resigned. roger stone, giuliani trump, he was an infant was lawyer with mccarthy when the stuff went on in the early 50's. they are trying to do the same thing. that's about what jack smith is doing. my comment about ashli babbitt, this young lady was in

joining us now former chief of staff to former vice president mike pence. mark short, thanks for joining us. this is a tactic that trump's team is well within their rights to make but they're clear they're trying to push the cases off until after the election. i know the vice president and you said while you were campaigning this should be up to the american voters not the justice system. do you still maintain that? >> absolutely feel like it should be left to the american voters particularly as relates to the case of colorado. but in this one i think you're right, the president's legal team wants to delay this until after the election hoping if he can get elected he can put his own team in in the department of justice department. but talking about the other cases that jumped to the supreme court there's one 50 years ago, the watergate case where the court ruled executive privilege was not blanketed immunity and the special counsel asked the supreme court to take up that case and they did. and they said no executive privilege is not blanketed. and that happ

i think that's been playing out as mike pence exited, tim scott exited, others exited. it continues to create this inevitability that donald trump will be the plan for the republicans. >> we really have been seeing that, mark. what do you think of what we've just learned this morning of governor sununu getting ready to, according to sources, endorse nikki haley potentially this evening. he's scheduled to appear with her in new hampshire. what do you think of the endorsement, and what do you think he can do for nikki haley? >> i don't think the endorsement is that much of a surprise. i think everybody was anticipating this. the question is when he would offer it to nikki haley. i think she needed this endorsement. certainly every candidate would like to get chris sununu's endorsement. the reality is i think desantis with kim reynolds' endorsements he has a bigger place in iowa. she needs to have a strong showing in new hampshire. her biggest competition for second is probably chris christie. getting sununu's endorsement is helpful. again, run it through the table, if des

an effort to cross several states to give then vice president mike pence an alternate incorrect slatery 6th. former vice president ultimately did not interfere in the electoral college certification, but from the work of the select committee and various other reporting, we know how deep this plan went. now a new report by cnn reveals even more how far trump allies went in their pusuit of this scheme. nbc news has not matched the reporting. it finds when there was concern the fake elect certificates from two critical battleground states were stuck in the mail on their way to the capitol, quote, trump campaign operatives scrambled to fly copies of the phony certificates from michigan to wisconsin to the nation's capitol relying on a haphazard chain of couriers as well as help from two republicans in congress to try to get the documents to then-vice president mike pence while he presided over the electoral college certification. these details come mostly from the architect of the fake elector plot himself, kenneth chesebro, who pleaded guilty in october to a felony conspiracy charge in g

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but they could hear the chanting too, "hang mike pence.day. [explosives booming] - just like, wow, is this where we are, man? once the building had been cleared, i was sitting down on that bench with a good friend of mine, not just a co-worker, he's a friend, and i'm just sobbing, tears are just rolling down my face. and, is this america? - overnight, a fifth death announced from the siege of the us capitol. capitol police... - i blame rudy more for that day than i do trump. he encouraged the insurrectionists to take the capitol. that's what trial by combat means, by any means necessary. - this election was stolen, and it has to be vindicated to save our republic. - he plays to the base insecurity of people that need somebody to rally to them. - stop talking! let's start hanging! - and that is what rudy has mastered, us against them. so he's become a folk hero to the crowd that needs an excuse to not deal with the reality of why we have different social problems and classes. - he blames it on me. he blames it on you. - if you were there in

mike pence hoped to beat trump's ear apparent, as he was the phone and vice president. supporters ended up colin for his execution. in 2024, we'll surely sort -- see a whole new crop of republicans who try and hitch their wagon to trump. i would urge all of them to consider the stories of kevin mccarthy, paul ryan, mike pence and others who hoped trump would bring them fame and fortune. and in the end, found out he is only interested in helping himself. i gotcha. it i gotcha it we're travelling all across america, talking to people about their hearts. ooh, take this exit. how's the heart? i feel like it's good. you feel like it's good? how do you know when it's time to check in on your heart? how do you know? let me show you something. it looks like a credit card, but it is the kardiamobile card. that is a medical-grade ekg. want to see how it works? yeah. put both thumbs on there. that is your heart coming from the kardiamobile card. wow! with kardiamobile card, you can take a medical-grade ekg in just 30 seconds, from anywhere. kardiamobile card is proven to detect at

marshall >> martially actual mentioned vice president mike pence in this ruling. and they were talking about him and, the reaction to it about repeatedly demanding that vice president pence refused to perform's constitutional duty -- they say that these actions constituted overt voluntary and direct participation in the insurrection. this opinion is pretty scathing marshall. >> it's strong, and the reason why they focused on that is because the constitution, which by the way, i don't think is as clear as some of those guests were trying to say it was, but the constitution says that you have to engage in insurrection in order to be disqualified. engage. so mike pence, those tweets the trump was putting out during the siege, during the riot. those are actions. the calls that he was putting into members of congress, and senators trying to prod them, to overturn the results even while the mob was breaking the windows outside. those are actions. that is what the colorado supreme court said today, that is what engagement is and trump engaged in insurrection. it was scat

joining me now, olivia troye, former top aide to former vice president mike pence. the sunday show. your reaction to that poll out of iowa. what does it say about how trump's rhetoric is resonating with the base? >> i think it says a lot about where the voters are, especially republican voters, and how effective the machine has been pushing this propaganda and favor of trump. i think it's upsetting to me, to be honest, as someone who was a lifelong republican. i've been wanting the party to go at a totally different direction, but despite the rhetoric and the openness of donald trump, he has his loyal following. he's been enabled by many republican party, and supported along the way, despite what he's doing. >> now, when republicans specifically the maga base here trumping compared to hitler, are they more likely to tune out? is that comparison actually effective in addressing the horrifying implications of trump's rhetoric? or is that a bridge too far? >> you, know i don't actually think that they see it in that light, to be honest. i, the rest of us are horrified,

i'm joined tonight by mark short, former chief of staff to vice president mike pence and david axelrod, former adviser to president barack obama. having a strong immigration policy is one thing. this is not that. as you're someone who well knows trump's language has consequences, it's not just colorful words as some people like to dismiss it as. how dangerous do you think that is in. >> i think it's offensive, it's certainly outlandish but you know he says things like that to get extra attention, put himself back in the center of coverage. it's so incredibly wrong and unnecessarily. the reality is the biden administration has been so poor on the border, the border is such a weakness for them and such a winning issue by trump, it shouldn't be covered by controversy. >> no one is talking about it as like an actual issue right now. they're not saying well, this could be done with asylum. that conversation is happening on capitol hill. they're talking about, he's saying what hitler used to say. >> you covered it since 2016, he has probably never read mein kampf, but yeah, making the point,