it's clearly how he intimidated mike pence, but he was operating as an outlaw throughout all the actions on january 6. >> and pence was operating as a member of the legislative branch as president the senate, not as donald trump's vice president. and that official capacity, but congressman, what about the question of the timing here? this filing coming on this tuesday, jack smith filing this days before each side was supposed to give their proposals for how to proceed after the supreme court immunity decision back in july, why today during donald j. trump well, look if donald trump doesn't like how late this is happening, he should not have been delaying and postponing voters for many, many months here jack smith is playing the cards. he's been dealt by donald trump and by trump's supporters on the roberts court, who have made this go as slow so as possible, and i think there's something quietly heroic about jack smith insisting on going forward to make sure that this plot come to light donald trump tried to interfere with the peaceful transfer of power with the counting of electoral col

that was the t number one issue that mike pence tackled and handled. in a majority and especially people in washington saw that he was an effective manager. happen. pence took the leadership of a very difficult, very thorny issue and did a fairly good job. you may not disagree with him turning over control of the pandemic to dr. fauci and the way they handled it, but most people s or that i handle it. most people thought pence was an effective communicator on the issue. even when he was able to get out there and talk about it. >> lucy a new york republican hi lucy. >> caller: this is such a light topic and a light to book. it's an attempt to try to make money. the vice presidency they don't do much they said the same thing about biden when he was a vice president to obama. and for him to talk about the way john fort speakes should have proved the correct way you should have proven. you are not that articulate yourself. >> quite close talk about the job of the vice president. the role they play in any administration requests the role the vice president

president, might play in all of this in the indictment attempts to reframe trump's relationship with mike pence emphasizing that he was acting as trump's running mate. >> i mean, what do you make of that and whether or not we will likely see pence called as a witness. >> i think the justice department absolutely will want to call mike pence again. mike pence in his capacity as the president over the senate as a member of the congressional branch, as opposed to his role as vice president and a part of the executive branch of government. again, big fight, old we're what was mike pence doing? what capacity was he acting in? a when he was engaging with donald trump over not certifying the vote on january 6, the electoral college votes not clear. again, that jack smith is going to be able to convince a trial court, an appellate court, and particularly the supreme court, or that mike pence was acting in his capacity as a member of congress versus as in his capacity as a member of trump's cabinet. >> if trump wins, he'll be able to get this thrown out. what he? in the election at puts a huge amount of

the way that they're trying to walk this line is there articulating dates when donald trump and mike pence either met in in-person or had conversations about what pence was to do as president of the senate. so a default friend branch of government, than what trump and pence were doing as president and vice president. and so they're very likely going to be putting that before, not just judge chutkan in the near future, but also very likely appeals courts, even potentially the supreme court ultimately, on this question what mike pence and donald trump talked about every time trump was berating him, turning the conversation with him to january 6, telling him what he wanted him to do to block the certification of the electoral college votes when pence would preside over the senate session. all of that is very like play going to be something the prosecutors are going to fight to keep in this case. and donald trump's team is going to try and argue, we don't want pence here at all. >> kaitlan real quick? no, he's still a lot more to go through, but essentially, there was and i'm gonna shorthand h

he told me he would go to pence's say, but, mike, this decision is crazy and there'd be this pause. and pence, the governor would be waiting for him to say, yes, i know, but he never did. instead, pence always said, i understand. thank you for your input. it would never, ever, ever betray even the tiniest hint of disloyalty. now, fortunately for reporters, other vice presidents haven't always been so reticent, or at least their staffs haven't won. one thing i've learned in covering the white house most of these last three years is that you could often get really good information from a vice presidents staff because they're actually in the meetings, but nobody notices them. and they have their own interest. they're promoting their own guy, their own person, as opposed to they're also promoting the president. but their first loyalty, the person they're thinking about the most is the vice president. sometimes, therefore, is in their interest as they see it, to help us understand what's going on in the white house. so as reporters, i would say i'm very grateful to vice presidents and the

but you also see in that, mike pence's role in the pressure campaign against mike pence is integral tojack smith considers his case to be. as compared to other conversations that donald trump had with people in his white house or department of justice orbit, they were willing to let those go. the mike pence things on the other hand, that is part and parcel to what jack smith thinks this case is fundamentally about. >> we have a little bit more from january 6th, it seems like we get a little bit more every once in a while. and this is from nancy pelosi. there's video from her of that day. there's also video of her the next day, ryan reilly, talking about donald trump, and essentially blaming him for the chaos at the capitol. where did we get this from? >> this is footage that was shot by alexandra pelosi, nancy pelosi's daughter. it's the cutout of footage used for a documentary for hbo. it was turned over by hbo and obtained by nbc news. it's kind of remarkable footage because it shows her immediate reaction to this. she's obviously upset about the failures in law enforcement, and very

kamala harris is an intellectual elephant and donald trump and mike pence are fleas. host: what about her intellect? guest: i think she has plenty of intellect. she's served as attorney general and she did a very good job representing californians in the senate. i think that when it came to running heown presidential campaign in 2020 during the decrat primary and certainly in the campaign afterwards, i think that a lot of voters were not pleased with ha they saw. that's why she sort of started at the top when she announced her run for president and then ultimately had to withdraw from the race before voting even begaowa. i think that's a big tell of how if -- that you are not ready for the national platform of the executive branch. host: we will go down to houston, texas. tom is a republican there. good morning, tom. caller: good morning. good morning. thanks for taking my call. i have been a republican, i am 85 years old, been a republican a long time. i am leaning towards voting for president biden and vice president harris. look, this guy that you are interviewing

kamala harris is an intellectual elephant and donald trump and mike pence are fleas. host: what about her intellect? guest: i think she has plenty of intellect. she's served as attorney general and she did a very good job representing californians in the senate. i think that when it came to running her own presidential campaign in 2020 during the democrat primary and certainly in the campaign afterwards, i think that a lot of voters were not pleased with ha they saw. that's why she sort of started at the top when she announced her run for president and then ultimately had to withdraw from theacbefore voting even began in ia. i think that's a big tell of how if -- that you are not ready for the national platform of the executive branch. host: we will go down to houston, texas. tom is a republican there. good morning, tom. caller: good morning. good morning. thanks for taking my call. i have been a republican, i am 85 years old, been a republican a long time. i am leaning towards voting for president biden and vice president harris. look, this guy that you are interview

this really is the heart of the whole case, getting mike pence to block the certification.s a very important part of the narrative, i think, and so they'll litigate it and figure whether this is in or out. >> chief justice in the majority opinion on this case wrote whenever the president and vice president discuss their official responsibilities, they engage in official conduct. it seems like it's going to be a high burden to meet to overcome the presumption of immunity if they're not able to, does jack smith have a case without the conversations with vice president mike pence? >> i think so. you're right. this is going to be litigated and we're going to see a decision on this, probably ultimately by the supreme court. even without the mike pence evidence, however, i think the narrative is a little less complete, but there is still evidence of donald trump -- allegations of donald trump pressuring state officials to change their slate of electors, organizing fake slates of electors and exploiting the chaos at the capitol even after the attack took place. and so that still p

they say his interactions with mike pence prove his guilt.hey list him as president of the senate. really? i don't think donald trump knew he could break ties as president of the senate. mark meadows is also functioning as chief of staff. tell me how that doesn't go into the heading of immunity. that's the ground he's on. he says it is shaky legal ground. >> emily: i appreciate that because that's the fallacy that you can somehow cull out candidate from president. to that point, that's an excellent nuance. >> brian: i can't take credit. i have to give it to the legal expert. >> dagen: andy mccarthy wrote a piece saying the supreme court and its immunity decision did leave the door open for jack smith to pursue using mike pence and his legislative role. you read the supreme court decision. mike pence in the legislative role in the senate, that's how. >> emily: coming up, the shocking amount of taxpayer money mississippi is spending on illegal immigrants. ♪ ♪ the world has changed. clearly, it's not the eighties in the nineties anymore. and whe

mike pence is going to have to come through for us. and if he doesn't that will be a sad day for our country i mean shermichael that directly repudiates what j.d. >> vance was trying to say there in that. well, this was a peaceful transfer of power. that's what donald trump intended all along. he was saying no this is what i want mike pence to do. and then he says he's going to go down to the capitol with these people who then kind of violently overtake it to try to get mike pence to do what they wanted to do. and when they realized he's not start hunting him in the hallways, i realized that this is something that now republicans talk differently about than they did in the immediate aftermath but i still have trouble squaring it. >> i mean, yeah republicans do talk differently about it. i take that point. but i also think for the harris/walz campaign, it is not a critical theme of, of of their messaging. and we've sort of seen that. i think the vice president is running on a very different platform and message in terms of how she would

>> yes. >> oh, no. >> june 7th. >> do you like mike pence? >> do i like your pants or mike pence?> no, mike pence. you know, he is very religious? >> oh, yeah, i do know that. >> jesus wears a bracelet that says what would mike pence do. isn't that clever? i wrote that earlier. >> you wrote that? >> i was taking a shower, and i wrote it in the steam, and the next thing you know, it evaporated, so i had to go to my memory. it was very weird, and he is very pale. >> you're pale. >> he makes you look like a member of the wu-tang clan. oh, it's the show "barry." what's "barry" about? >> i play a hitman named barry who wants to be an actor. >> i've been mad at hbo, though. >> well, why is that? >> since they canceled "arliss." i mean, you cancel "arliss?" i loved "arliss," and i thought hbo, what's your big deal? you're canceling "arliss" and putting on -- no offense -- >> "barry," yeah. >> "barry." it didn't make any sense. >> i hear that. >> so, have you gotten the dramatic thing out of your system, the boo-hooing, and are you going back to the funny voices? we want you to. [ laughte

for donald trump, this is like the younger mike pence in a way for him. to nail down these white evangelical christians that were the basis of his election in 2016. >> he is mike pence without the boring snooze monotone voice of mike pence. >> but he is not actually entertaining either. >> and he would overturn the election results that mike pence wouldn't. >> jd vance comes from appalachian background. he should be like, you should get this idea, this is a working class guy. he comes across as an elitest. makes millions of dollars. everything he says, it is like he is talking down to us. >> stick around. we have a lot more to discuss after the break. a new secret video revealing trump's ties to project 2025 and how it is central to a second trump term. should he get one that no one is surprised about. one is surprised about. ♪ (man) yes! ♪ (vo) you've got your sunday obsession and we got you. now with verizon, get nfl sunday ticket from youtube tv on us and get every out-of-market sunday game. plus $800 off samsung galaxy z fold6. only on verizon. (jalen

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are we going to hear from mike pence do you think more this election?e he stands on this. i don't think there's any way he could do what kinzinger and others have done and embrace this ticket. i think it's one of the most far left tickets that the american people have seen in a presidential race and i think that everything that kamala has tried to advance would be antithetical to what mike pence fought for as a conservative. >> marc short, thank you for being with us. he with appreciate it. >> thank you. >> next will former house speaker kevin mccarthy finally gets revenge on matt gaetz for helping take away his speakership? >> you're watching special coverage right here on msnbc. don't go anywhere. t go anywhere. hi, my name is damian clark. and if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all these plans include a healthy options a

that would lead to people like mike pence being able to take the stand and testify that he in fact was acting as a candidate or he was acting as the president of the senate. that i think, is going to be the battleground it will be interesting to see whether these reports jack smith may not be seeking that kind of hearing before the election, whether that is true or not. it is not totally clear. we haven't really heard from the horses mouth. we have really only heard leaks that are coming from the defense side. on friday, we should know whether there will be that type of hearing, which of course, could be really explosive because the position of mike pence and what he has said in the grand jury to jack smith is not public. >> one basic interpretation of the supreme court immunity invention is that the president, when he's ordering people in the executive branch who he can boss around, whatever he's doing there, he's immune from crimes. that sort of quick, dirty way of saying it. the trouble with the vice president is, he is under no obligation at any moment to obey anything the presiden

so, for donald trump, this was like the younger mike pence in a way for him, to nail down these white evangelical christians that were the basis of his election in 2016. >> he is mike pence without the boring snooze monotone voice of mike pence. >> but he is not actually entertaining either. >> he would overturn the election results that mike pence wouldn't do. >> were dangerous. >> jd vance, he comes from this appalachia background, he wrote about in hillbillies. he should be like, you get this idea that this is a working- class guy juergen said he comes across as an elitist to his born into wealth and he's not. he goes to yale law school. goes to silicon valley and makes millions of dollars in everything he says is like he is talking down to us. that's how i feel. >> we have a lot more to discuss after the break. a new secret video revealing trump's ties to project 2025 and how it is essential to a second trump term should he get one that no one is surprised about. to quit the kibble and feed their dogs fresh food from the farmer's dog. made by vets and delivered right to your door

>> well, i want to go back to what you were saying before about mike pence, because mike pence was actuallyedibly important pick for donald trump. he did give a permission structure for evangelicals to support him, and pence was a red state governor, an old- school guy, he had been a conservative radio host, he had this kind of real -- kind of cried with these evangelicals, which really did give them the permission to support him. so, i think it's interesting that trump is so negative on his vice president now, and you have to wonder. but yeah, i mean, i think that it does matter. you know, look, if elections are as tight as they have been previously, then everything matters, right? there is no -- nothing you want to throw off. what state and who the person is and who they excite, those are all important. so, i think you are right, and i think a good pick balances the ticket, so yeah, i think i totally agree with that. >> basil, let me pressed you the same sort of question, which is there is a case to be made that opinions on trump are just so cemented at this juncture that it really doesn'

people were calling to hang mike pence. that pence was still covering for the boss.ng over the less charitable portions of trump's video message. that omission to me that is all i remember from this book even if i reviewed the whole thing. that to me so much of pence vice president said for me is captured in those three little dots in that quote. >> i totally agree. and i rolled right over. that is why you are you an ime. don't get your questions pretty quickly. i think sometimes people are like carlos will read the politician's book but itu think one of the things that you do that are of most value and i would recommend if you have not read carlos piece about project 25 which is the conservative think tank effort i would argue to give donald trump some level of a blueprint of ideas of what actually to do beyond winning. carlos reads these things the government produces or entities produce which is a huge value. i would say heto reads it so we don't have too. watch to borrow my game of thrones outdated references like watchmen on the wall reading this. this shows you

jd vance has said he would do what mike pence refused to do.definitive rulings of 80 federal and state court judges in the country, and he would have essentially stepped outside of his assigned constitutional role of just being a ministerial, administrator of proceedings, and he would have tried to block the electors from coming in from millions of people including everybody from pennsylvania and michigan and arizona and georgia and nevada. that's alarming. i can't believe that's not a bigger issue in this campaign that jd vance is running around the country essentially telling republicans, that he would follow the order that mike pence lost his job for not following. it should be as big a deal as donald trump running around the country saying he's proud of having appointed the justices who destroyed a constitutional right for women to choose to have an abortion if they need one been. >> such a good point. i have a feeling on donald trump's vp, pros, he will help me do what pence wouldn't do and negative is like, he seems to hate people who don

jack smith trimmed it, changed a couple words to describe mike pence.ft at it the way it was and that will likely go to the court. paul: the way this will work as they will have a hearing. that is immune, that is immune, she will have to rule on that and trump will challenge if she says you're not immune and that will take months. this is decided substantially by the election. >> that's the way it should be. the american people don't know all jack smith's charges. they are not into the presumptive immunity but they know what trump is broadly accused of and what prosecutors are doing not only jack smith but state prosecutors. they don't like it. i think it is good in a self-governing society the end judgment will be the voters on november, on the election day. i think they've given signals they are not synthetic to this case. paul: if he wins those charges go away. if not, there will be years. as a harris agenda comes into focus we will continue looking at plans for $5 trillion in tax increases and what it could mean for you. rition, that's a huge relief

what is added is lots of language saying mike pence acted as either a candidate or as president of the senate. not as an official piece of action. and trump was acting in an unofficial way. donald trump can say i challenge that. i think it is not right and then he could have a factual hearing. that is the last thing donald trump wants. he does not want a factual hearing, at least before the election. that would lead to people like mike pence being able to take the stand and testify that he in fact was acting as a candidate or as president of the senate. that is going to be the battleground. it will be interesting to see whether these were ports that jack smith may not seek that hearing. whether that is true or not, it is not totally clear. we haven't really heard from the horses mouth. on friday, we should know whether they will be that type of hearing which could be explosives. because of mike pence position on what he said is not public. >> one basic interpretation of the supreme court immunity invention, the president, when he is ordering people in the executive branch who he couldn

there still is a lot about mike pence in this document and it still is something that puts pence at the center of looking at immunity around the presidency going forward. >> so what happens next? >> well, anderson, next, there's going to be a filing on friday where the justice department says this is what we want to do, how we want to figure this out, because there is stuff in this indictment that the judge is still going to need to look at potentially appeals courts will look at as well. there's a hearing plan for next thursday and back to mike pence again as vice president, what they're trying to do here is say, we kept everything in this indictment that says mike pence was acting as the president of the senate on january 6, that is something that judges, courts are going to be looking very closely at. it could mean more hearings. it could even mean witnesses being called to the stand well, before a trial, whatever take place, witnesses up to an including the former vice president himself, polantz. >> thanks, joining us now to drill down further as former federal prosecutor investigat

what he didid that day a day where trump was not helping them out and people were calling to hang mike pence that pence was still covering for the boss by skipping over the less charitable portion of trump's video message and that omission to me, that's all that i remember from the book even if i didn't read the whole thing. that to me, like so much of pence' vice presidency for me was captured in those three little words and output. >> i totally agree and i just rolled right over it. that's way you are you and not me. i want to get to your questions pretty quickly. there's a couple other things. one that i want to bring up is i think sometimes people are like oh carlos hill read all the books but one of the things you do that is ofst most value and i would recommend to people if you've not read carlos' piece aboutns project 2025 which is te conservative pink tank effort to provide i would argue to give donald trump somewhat of a level for a blueprint for ideas on what actually to do beyond winning, you should because he read all 887 pages of it. carlos reads these things that the government

you watch that mike pence debate. she was very good at sort of cutting him off and sort of get being able to deliver lines when it wasn't her turn always to speak or when she was speaking in sort of talking over him and then of course, donald trump, as even mentioned earlier, it's not the most disciplined communicator and clearly some people i've talked to, some people in the harris campaign that think the biden campaign aired and asking for those muted mics, given, given donald trump's lack of discipline at times and to that point, kristen, what about the internal contradiction within the trump campaign? >> the trump campaign saying that they want the mic to be muted than their candidate on the campaign trail yesterday saying he didn't mind if they were unmuted, but from the campaign's perspective, if they want those mics muted, do you think, kristen, that that's an admission that they don't trust their candidate not to interrupt harris not necessarily. i mean, i do think setting aside this debate, it's certainly the

i don't think mike pence. mike pence?asn't come out in support of donald trump yet, so rachel, what does this tell you about trump this is incredibly concerning. >> i worry almost at this point that people are desensitized to the number of former trump aides who are coming out and saying that they don't endorse him for president, or that they're revealing new details that are really concerning. for example, general mcmaster talked about how donald trump wanted to surround himself with people who only uplifted his opinions and didn't give him unvarnished assessments. he also said he had to remind donald trump that he's not friends with vladimir putin. these are all things that are really concerning and it builds on the fact that historic number of republicans are endorsing vice president harris for president. there were six republicans speakers on the stage of the democratic national convention last week. even more in videos. and what's really powerful here is that a lot of them are coming around to saying that that what i

let's put adults in the room or our country deserves joining me now is a former adviser to mike pence, olivia troye as she is speaking at the convention tonight, we've spoken so many times, olivia, over the last couple years, but here you are at the democratic national convention you and i've talked about this before. >> you are a lifelong republican, used to vote republican in every election. basically, whoever was on the ballot that's what you did and here you are the dnc. it's got to be surreal. >> it's, it's absolutely surreal. i mean, i can't believe we're sitting here in the convention center and i'm about to talk before democrats, right at the last convention, i went to was in philadelphia for the rnc back in the day was i was still an rnc staffer at the time. it's long. it's been so yeah, you know, it's an emotional moment. but i think what you're seeing is all of us coalesce and say it's country over party and we are hoping to pave a better and brighter future for the american people, because those of us who lived it, like stephanie grisham said we know we know what donald tr

we could even be seeing things like witness testimony from mike pence or others who have some sort ofngs to say about the presidential immunity decision that the supreme court has made aid and about whether donald trump was working in some way in his official capacity as the president. so there's a lot of work to be done. this case isn't dead. it is going to be going forward, but there's much to be seen and the weeks ahead, pam. >> all right. katelyn polantz, i know you'll keep us updated on that and outfront now, ryan goodman, co-editor in chief of just security and former special counsel and the defense department brian, thanks for coming on. so you just heard kaitlan kind of lay it a lot that judge chutkan has a reputation for moving fast. i mean, that was something brought up right by the supreme court and its opinion on immunity realistically do you think this case will ultimately go to trial? and if so, when i think the only prospect of the case going to trial is sometime next year. >> so the when an if is dependent upon if donald trump is reelected, if he is, then trial will ba

, mike pence did not testify before congress and the january 6 committee. there's a very good argument for the justice department and say, this is what the supreme court called for an evidentiary inquiry they're, try to look at their legal test and then apply it to the facts of the communications with mike pence. so there's every reason to expect that might happen. but judge chutkan could say, i want to just hear that on the papers. we don't need any hearings. and we don't need witnesses. >> and doj could tell it looks too much like political interference before an election. i mean, there's all kinds of variables there ryan goodman. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> outfront. next, meet the comedian who is taking the internet by storm after perfecting the kamala harris laugh kamala. now wow. with swab investing themes, it's easy to invest in ideas you believe spot a trend and electric vehicles have a passion for online gaming. >> or one explore the space economy choose from over 40 themes, each with up to 25 stocks identified by our unique algorithm. by i

[booing] at least mike pence was polite. >> stephen: it's true. it's true.to the mob, "thank you for the offer, but i'm allergic to rope." can i take a raincheck? mother? oh, mother? he went on. >> choosing a guy like j.d. vance to be america's next vice president sends a message. >> stephen: "you better scotch guard the white house upholstery." [laughter] not true. it's not a true story. the secretary of transportation made it clear. he wants to go forward, not back. >> they're telling you that greatness comes from going back to the past. >> stephen: "but they're not telling you that once you do that, your mom will get a crush on you and she'll never hook up with your dad, and then you will disappear from the photo until you, a white guy, teach chuck berry about rock n roll." ♪ ♪ and then two sequels. it's a mess. then, one of tim walz's old neighbors brought out something special. the football team that coach walz took from being 27 game losers to state champions. too adorable! roughing the heart. 15 yards. thank you, citizen. then it was time to welcome t

does the immunity ruling mean that evidence about mike pence is off-limits? precise questions before judge chutkan. the special counsel in describing the interaction with the vice president, with mike pence, described him as the president of the senate. not only the vice president of the executive branch, the president of the senate, presides over that legislative body. the special counsel theory, and this will be resolved by judge chutkan, is that when president trump is communicating with vice president pence, it's a vice presidential candidate talking to the president of the senate, and therefore, not within the president's official function, and not immune from a criminal case. >> thank you for clearing all of that up. let's talk about what happened this week, justice ketanji brown jackson speaking out about the supreme court majority granting trump unlimited immunity. let's watch that. >> i was concerned about a system that appeared to provide immunity for one individual under one set of circumstances. when we have a criminal justice system that had, ord

what he did that day a day, where trump was not helping out, where people were calling to hang mike pence, that pence was still covering for the boss. right. by skipping over the, you know, less charitable portions of trump's video message. and that to me, like, that's all that i remember from book, even if i reviewed the whole thing, right? like that to me, like so much of pence's vice presidency, for me is captured in those three little dots in that quote i totally agree i of course just rolled right over it. that's why you're you and not me. i want i want to get to your questions, your questions pretty quickly. i do. there's one other oh, a couple other things one that i want to bring up is i think sometimes people are like, oh carlos, like he'll read the like politicians books. but i actually think one of the things that you do that is of most value and i would recommend to people if you have not read carlos, this piece about project 2025, which is the sort of conservative think tank effort to it, i would argue, to give donald trump some level of a blueprint for ideas what actually to

they focused on the fact that the allegations involving mike pence involve him in his role as presidentf the senate, which is an article run that is not an executive branch article to say when he's pressuring mike pence about the certification of the electoral college, he's doing it while mike pence is in the role outside the executive branch and is a role that the president had no official responsibility for. similarly, they make clear that trump was acting as a candidate and not a president. and some of his interactions with state legislators and state officials and his getting behind the fraudulent elector scheme. and with his tweets and public statements. they say these were done in his personal capacity where he's a candidate and they always refer to the january 6th speech as a campaign speech and made clear was privately funded and privately organized. these are all things to put them on the side of unofficial acts or rebutting presumptive immunity of official acts as the spring court outline.>> is a former acting assistant attorney general, talk me talk to me about how this case

>> he has been saying this for a long time and he even said this about mike pence.it's funny, though, because mike pence gave evangelicals permission to vote for him. mike pence was actually so helpful for trumped the first time, so i think he just -- you know, i'm not a psychiatrist but it certainly feels like this is some kind of narcissistic thing that has to do with his own belief that he is a single important figure here, but he did actually get quite a lot from his last vice president. >> let's stay on jd vance because trump is desperately trying to convince voters that he has nothing to do with project 2025, but we just learned that jd vance wrote the foreword for a book written by kevin roberts, who was the president of the heritage foundation which brought project 2025. tim, how much farther to the right is jd vance than donald trump? won't this make it harder for them to say we don't know anything about that thing? >> i think this latest iteration of jd vance is quite a bit more to the right of donald trump. obviously that was not always the case. eight ye

and he even said this about mike pence.ce gave evangelicals permission to vote for him. right. mike pence was actually so helpful for trump the first time. so i think he just, you know, i think look i'm not a psychiatrist but it certainly feels like this is some kind of narcissistic thing that has to do that he's the only important figure here. but he did get a lot his last time as president. >> j.d. vance wrote the forward for a book written by kevin roberts who's the president of the heritage foundation which published project 2025. how much farther to the right is j.d. vance than donald trump. won't this make it harder for them to say, we don't know anything about that thing? >> yeah, well, i think his latest iteration of j.d. vance is quite a bit more to the right of donald trump. obviously that was always the case. eight years ago that was defensible. but he's taken the red pill as they say. what was outlined in that kevin roberts book. we haven't seen everything yet. it's a book that's not yet out. from his endorsemen