and we learn the frenetic nature of the campaign against mike pence. th from donald trump to pence directly in face-to-face meetings. with large groups as well as one-on-one meetings and phone calls. one-on-one and with other witnesses. i think what wasn't appreciated was that donald trump was the driver. eastman has created some mythology around himself and has been covered. donald trump drove the mission both to lie about losing because of his vanity as well as to bring the mob to washington on january fth as well as the effort to single out pence to do the deed of overturning the defeat and convincing them to do that. i wonder what you make of donald trump and the command and control position of both the deadly insurrection as well as refusal to concede defeat. >> i think that's a really important point. if you go back to a much more mundane part of the post election or the time seemed mundane, donald trump wound up placing a call to the state canvassing board members for wayne county, michigan. it was kind of an odd thing at the time that you had th

donald trump tried to put public pressure on mike pence by tweeting lies, like all mike pence has to do is send them back to the states and we win. do it, mike, this is a time for extreme courage. donald trump's last attempt to personally convince mike pence to create a crime was on january 6. at 11:15 a.m., shortly before traveling to the ellipse to speak to his supporters, the defendant called mike pence and made one last attempt to induce him to act unlawfully in the upcoming session. when he again refused and told the defendant that he intended to make a statement to congress before the preceding confirming that he lacked the authority to do what the defendant wanted, the defendant was incensed. he decided to reinsert into his campaign speech at the ellipse, remarks targeting pence for his refusal to misuse his role in the certification and the defendant set into motion the last plan in furtherance of his conspiracies. if pence would not do as he asked, the defendant needed to find another way to prevent the certification. when the defendant took the stage at the ellipse rally to

mike pence has betrayed the united states of america. >> hang mike pence! hang mike pence! >> pence was sent down in the basement of the capitol for his own safety while a violent mob urged on by donald trump ravaged the capital, setting up a gallows outside. in addition to a lengthy recounting of trump's many efforts to get pence to steal the election, the new filing also provides insight to what was going through trump's head when he learned his running mate was in danger. upon receiving a phone call alerting him that pence had been taken to a secure location, someone identified as person 15 rushed to the dining room to inform trump in hopes that trump would take action to ensure pence's safety. instead, after person 15 delivered the news, trump looked at him and said only, so what? i am joined now by rachel maddow and lawrence o'donnell. it is good to have you here. first i am just very curious to get your initial thoughts, having had a little bit of time to go through the filing. rachel, i will start with you. >> it strikes me that there are two things here that are inte

, and every single step of this story that mike pence is in, mike pence is doing and saying the right thing every time. he is saying and doing what he was elected to do, what his oath of office told him to do, which is when donald trump says to him, you really should do this, every single time, every time he says now. every single time. >> against interest and against political pressure. rachel. >> yeah, i just wanted to jump in there to follow in the shadow of what lawrence just said there. you noted it's kind of hard to keep track of what is in the public record and lawrence was saying the sort of feels like the screenplay version to help you connect different things. one of the things i never connected before, on page 63 of this document, we knew from pence is now more that when he was really making clear as of january 1st that he was not going to go along with this, we know from his memoir that trump threatened him and said quote, hundreds of thousands of people are quote, going to hate your guts. we knew that he had done that. what i did not know before reading this today is that

that would lead him to conclude that mike pence lacked courage. later in the filing, smith describes trump's reaction when the capitol mob threatened pence's life on january 6th. upon receiving a phone call that alerted him pence has been taken to a safe location, a staffer informed trump in the hopes that trump would take action to ensure pence's safety. instead, after the staffer delivered the news, trump looked at him and said only so what. the vice president's life is in danger and the president's reaction is so what. this new filing further sheds light on just how conscious trump was that he was lying about the election. at one point long after the defendant had begun spreading false fraud claims, a white house staffer traveling with trump overheard him telling family members it doesn't matter if you won or lost the election. you still have to fight like hell. and then we learned the degree to which the trump campaign explicitly encouraged violent disruption. not just at the capitol but in states where the vote was still being counted. you mig

stuff like conversations with trump and vice president mike pence before an angry mob called for mike pence to be hanged. at abe private luncheon decembe 21st pence encouraged trump not to look at the election as a loss, just an intermission. this was followed later in the day by a private discussion in the oval office in which trump asked pence, what do you think we should do? pence said, after we have exhausted every legal process in the courts and congress, if we still come up short, trump should take a bow. trying to get trump to think aboutp his loss as an art missn suggests mike pence wanted trump to run again in 2024 and was presumably ready to run with him. but it was mike pence's decision to focus on the future, as jaesks might say, instead of doing trump's bidding in the present that might ultimately lead trump to believe mike pence lacked courage. upon receiving a phone call alerting him that pence had been taken to a secure location, a staffer rushed s to the dining room to inform trump in hopes that the defendant, trump, would take action to ensure pence's safety. instead

the mike pence scheme is another. but there still remains pressuring the state legislatures, the false slates of electors, and utilizing the chaos in the capital after the attack to continue to pressure members of congress to block certification of the election. those three schemes would remain even if the courts would disagree that the schemes relating to mike pence are private and not official conduct. but i think the mike pence case makes it a lot stronger. those individual conversations, having mike pence testify, clearly at one time donald trump's closest ally, to testify against him i think is a very powerful part of the case. it's stronger with the mike pence allegations in. >> also the callousness that donald trump had toward mike pence, and they lay it out in detail in this filing saying that he was watching television, he saw a supporter who was outside of the capitol, potentially a rioters, saying this was mike pence's fault, and mentioned the hang mike pence stuff, and donald trump is tweeting about mike p

tweet that day attacking mike pence for refusing the defendants entreaties to join the conspiracy and help overturn the results of the election. one minute after he sent that tweet the secret service was forced to evacuate mike pence to a secure location in the capital. this was 90 minutes after mike pence announced publicly he would not act unlawfully to overturn the election. the certification proceeding was underway in the first breach of the capitol building occurred minutes before at 2:12 eastern time. the defendant's only hope to disrupt the certification proceedings and retain power was through his angry supporters. the defendant further revealed the private nature of his desperate conduct as a candidate rather than as a president in an exchange that the government does not plan to use at a trial, but in exchange he had with his eight shortly after 2:24. upon receiving a phone call alerting him that mike pence had been taken to a secure location, the staffer rushed to the dining room to inform the president. after the staffer delivered the

and vice president mike pence before an angry mob called for mike pence to be hanged. at a private lunch, pence encouraged trump not to see the i election as a loss but as a pause. and trump asked pence what should we do. trump should take a bow. trying to get trump to think of his loss as an intermission. suggests that pence wanted trump to run again and joining him in the future. but it was trump to conclude that mike pence lacked courage. later in the filing, smith describe's trump's reaction when the capital mob threatened pence' life on january 6th. upon receiving a phone call alerting him that pence had been taken to a secure location. a staffer rushed to the dining room to inform trump so that trump would take action to ensure pence's safety. trump looked at him and said only, so what. the vice president's life is in danger and the president's reaction is so what. this new filing further sheds light on just how clencious trump was. then we learned the degree to which the trump campaign explicitly encouraged violent disruption. not just at the capital on january 6

election with the goal of de-certifying on january 6th, which brings us to former vice president mike pence this newly unsealed document smith explains to chutkan how he intends to prove that conversations between trump and pence were not conversations about pence's official responsibilities but rather in private capacities as running mates. this will be a key argument since pence was a primary witness to trump's illegal activity. currently cloaked in protection thanks to the leonard leo six. what judge chutkan decides will determine if the case survives. but what you decide at the ballot box will determine if donald trump will ever be held accountable for his crimes against our democracy. joining me now is katie phang, trial attorney and host of "the katie phang" show. hugo lowell correspondent for "the guardian" and michael steele, the former chairman of the rnc. katie, i want to start with you. here is the filing. i've been reading through it as fast as i can. i'm sure you're got an lot further than i have and understand it a lot more thoroughly. tell us what is new here and what is new

so what that's one of the details and then another thing they say they have mike pence's book that they can use in court to prove how pence was feeling about this. we know he testified to a grand jury. they also have five notes that mike pence was taking about how it was being explained to him. you can do it. you can be bold and be the person to block the election very, very detailed document released. >> by jack smith, the federal prosecutor. all right, guys. thank you very, very much. i want to bring in democratic congressman jamie raskin right now. he's a former member of the january 6 select committee, congressman. thanks so much for joining us. i know you have investigated trump now for several years. give us your analysis of jack smith's latest document. this brief, did any of this new evidence that is contained their surprise, you lot of new details that are really eye-popping, but the supreme court in the trump defense basically invited the submission of this document because what the roberts court did to try to placate trump was to say well, the president is essentially immune,

donald trump was alone in his dining room when he issued a tweet attacking mike pence and fueling the ongoing riots. "mike pence did not have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our constitution, giving states a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent ones they were asked to previously certified. usa demands the truth." that afternoon a rider used a bullhorn to read the tweet about the vice president allowed to the crowd. the defendant issued the incendiary tweet about mike pence despite knowing, as he would later admit in an interview in 2023, that his supporters listen to him like no one else." the filing goes on from there.

"trump cavalier as writers closed on mike pence, 'so what?'" host: good morning. caller: i'm in my 70's. i have seen a lot of things will stop on election night i was convinced that the five cities, milwaukee, detroit, philadelphia, georgia, even arizona was totally corrupt. we know those cities are heavily democrat, heavily minority, always corrupt. they've given around walking money for many years. i did not need trump to tell me the election was stolen to be honest with you. host: and you still feel that way? caller: absolutely. look at the numbers. host: you plan to vote in this election? will you trust the results of this election? caller: we will see what happens. hopefully it is fair and legitimate. the problem was with the mail in ballots, it was unprecedented. jimmy carter said that 40 years ago? maybe i got that wrong. mail in ballots are easily corruptible. host: what would you need to happen for you to trust the boat in 33 days? caller: i think we are fine now. i think we've made the adjustments. pennsylvania went not. nine days later? i am confident t

that issue and mike pence standing there as they were chanting, hang mike pence, mike pence made theright decision. so senator, it was adjudicated over and over and over. i worked with kids long enough to know, and i said as a football coach, sometimes you really want to win, but the democracy is bigger than winning an election. you shake hands and then you try and to do everything you can to help the other side win. that's what was at stake here. the thing i'm most concerned about is the idea that imprisoning your political opponents, already laying the groundwork for people not accepting this. and a president's words matter. a president's words matter. people hear that. so i think this issue of settling our differences at the ballot box, shaking hands when we lose, being honest about it, but to deny what happened on january 6th, the first time in american history that a president or anyone tried to overturn a fair election in the peaceful transfer of power. hooer we are four years later in the same boat. i will tell you this: that when this is over, we need to shake hands, this ele

, which later led to cries of hang mike pence and led to mike pence being evacuated from the capitol.hat tweet said "mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and constitution giving states the chance to certify a correct set of facts not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones they were asked to previously certify." usa demands the truth. this document jack smith is arguing was not a public statement of a president, that was private conduct to a person clinging to power. it goes into almost a novelist i can rendition of what happened in and around that. essentially that's what this document is, it's incredible level of detail supporting the more -- the drier and more sparse facts in the indictment. some of what we heard in the televised january 6th hearing but never before has it been laid out in in kind of fashion, again, almost novelistic in form. it talks about just the fact -- i will read. the defendant's actions and knowledge in the hours leading up to this tweet provide helpful context. continuing on, the tweet shows that the defendant

and even then mike pence kind of doesn't want to say he lost. as you said in the introduction, more like an intermission. a lot of kind of mike pence really dancing around donald trump's ego here. but really trying to get him to concede that, yes, this is a loss, there's no more process here, we have to stand down. that's really discussions between two running mates, that has nothing to do with their responsibilities as president and vice president. i think the special counsel does a good job of getting into the nitty-gritty, going into the details, and showing why each of these buckets of communications should not be immune from prosecution. >> certainly tailored with the supreme court decision in mind. kristy, talk to us about what happens next on who wins this case? is it completely dependent on who wins the next election? >> he's asking for more time, not surprising he wants to delay here. but i assume that brief will be filed before the election. at least it's scheduled to at this point. but once the election happens, you're absolutely righ

mike pence name keeps coming up. >> not only mike pence cannot beyond the states, he does not want to. he put his name in the ring to run for president eons ago. it has been clear that he is not endorsing donald trump. you have concerns that we mentioned about his ground game, donald trump's. republicans are concerned. it is a close election. how much of a difference with the ground game make? donald trump outsourced a lot of his work to elon musk. elon musk has done a lot of things but i don't think he's ever gotten anybody elected? he never turned out voters. this is a turnout election. >> there is anxiety on both sides of the aisle. 19 days away from the election. donald trump does not have as many field offices as the harris campaign. you can make the argument that a lot of voters know donald trump. they have an opinion of him. harris is still try to get voters to know her policies and to know her. as she is doing the media blitz and trying to get voters to know her, we continue to hear from people that do not know of about her. >> voters know donald trump. isn't that why he shoul

for the first time, smith including aspects of the only known testimony from mike pence. ecutors detailing the times pence spoke with trump trying to coax him into face-saving options. smith says the two conversations had as running mates, not in their official role of president and vice president. donald trump wants more time to file his response, pushing it past election day, while criticiing the timing of yesterday's release. >> this was a weaponization of government. that's why it was released 30 days before the election. it's nothing new in there. nothing new. they rigged the election. i didn't rig the election. they rigged the election. what they do is they rig the election and then they go around getting people and persecuting people and prosecuting people that did nothing wrong. they rigged the election. these are crooked people. deranged jack smith is a prosecutor put there in order to screw up the election for the republican party. it's pure election interference to get an incompetent person like kamala -- she's grossly incompetent. she's more incompetent than bi

if you have the stuff with mike pence, i can move forward and it helps a lot. but if i don't, i still have more than enough to make up my case and convict donald trump for what he has done on january 6th. >> this filing also zooms in on trump's use of twitter, and i'm quoting here, the phone's activity log show that the defendant was using his phone on january 6th, and in particular, using the twitter application consistently throughout the day after he returned from the ellipse speech. the special counsel wants to introduce this at trial using an fbi forensic expert, what do you think the prosecutors are trying to show with this? >> they're trying to show on january 6th, donald trump has actively involved himself, not having some aide do it, he is himself tweeting, and the tweets are, you know, spreading election fraud, even on that day, leading up to it, and on that day, he is trying to retaliate and pressure mike pence to not certify those votes. he is rallying his base. he's inflaming his base. there's one tweet in particular at 2:24 on that day at january

i mean, the then president tweeting about mike pence while mike pence and danger was was that not an official act of the president? >> well, first of all, i think i disagree with jeff because i think the pence accusations here, the pence data i think is new and that's the difference between what we saw it with respect to the january 6 committee and now so what jack smith is trying to do is show that pence was not pence and trump were not acting in any official capacity because there was no official capacity beyond certifying a ministerial just counting the votes and nothing more. i also want to follow up with laura coates said, which i think is very telling, which is there? in many of the conversations with pence, it was not just not excluding the white house counsel, but it was also campaign workers were in many of these conversations. it was clear then or it should be clear to a jury that what pence was again, acting as an office holder as office seeker rather than office holder pence smith goes into great detail about how the constitution expressly limits the sitting president and

but the bulk of new revelations involve trump's alleged interactions with vice president mike pence, based on five pages of notes by the vice president. the special counsel saying pence gradually and gently tried to convince the defendant to accept the lawful results of the election including a private lunch in december where pence encouraged trump not to look at the election as a loss, just an intermission. smith arguing trump and pence were political running mates discussing private acts, not office holders contemplating official ones. after pence decided not to stop the certification and trump denounced him in a tweet, smith recounts aides allegedly telling trump that pence was in danger. as trump sat in a white house dining room watching the capitol riot on tv, smith wrote, an aide said pence had been rushed to a secure location. smith says trump looked at the aide and said only, so what? in a statement the trump campaign spokesman called it false-hood ridden, unconstitutional and another obvious attempt by the biden reneej to undermine american democracy and interfere in the elec

i served with mike pence in congress. we disagreed on most issues. in congress and as a vice president, i never criticized mike pence's ethics and commitment to this country, and he made a decision for the constitution. mike pence did his duty. he honored his oath, and he chose the constitution over donald trump. [applause] understand in that 88th minute last night with that damning nonanswer, senator vance made it clear he will always make a different choice than mike pence made. and as i said then and i will say now, that should be absolutely disqualifying if you are asking to be the vice president of the united states. [cheers and applause] but our democracy is strong and we know that campaigns, campaigns are supposed to be about giving a vision. and last night you saw two very different visions for the future of this country. you also, a couple weeks ago, saw two very different visions of leadership on the debate stage with kamala harris and donald trump. [applause] president's words mean somet hing. president's words have consequences. when this

you know, people are yelling, hang mike pence, hang mike pence's. we all saw and he says so what kristen, if you could talk for a bit like, i understand the argument this is 34 days before an election but what facts in here do they specifically dispute specifically? well, as of now, we're not hearing them dispute any of the facts there, saying the same thing that we've heard time and time again, that this is a witch-hunt, that this is a hoax, that this is all political. it's not as though they are parsing through and giving us examples of what exactly is incorrect or not. i do want to touch on one thing here when it comes to the political part of this because as paula mentioned, there's not a lot of headlines coming out of this in terms of those hough we didn't know maybe from previous filings, maybe just from reporting at the time, but the timeframe does matter because it's one of the things that we talk about a lot more covering politics is that the people aren't paying attention until roughly 60 days before the election until roughly 30 days befo

however, who is mike pence? his running mate? what do you doing running as a candidate, not as president. so you're going to have mike pence really taking the stand it moves forward, giving evidence with respect to the conversations he had with his boss concerning this fake elector scheme concerning his presiding over the senate and ditching the real ones and putting in these other ones. and so that's going to be problematic. what else kaitlan, i'm concerned as a defense attorney, all of these statements and set were made and things that were done with the state people coming from arizona, georgia, wisconsin, pennsylvania, take it as you will, but all of the pressure on them. and then when the outset of this segment you showed the january 6 that's all coming in because that was the culmination of this pressure upon everyone to say iowan you lost. so there's a lot to work for and work with as a defense attorney to refute if the matter goes forward at all of this all of this comes in. >> yeah. and their names are redacted. brian ke

, cuando le dijeron que mike pence estaba en peligro.r estos argumentos. reportera: donald trump dijo que el informe era falso e inconstitucional. y que ocurre despuÉs del desastroso debate de tim walz. maity: gracias. el presidente biden y kamala harris viajaron al sureste del paÍs para inspeccionar daÑos provocados por el huracÁn helene. y hasta ahora han cobrado 182 vidas. y los gastos podrÍa ascender a miles de millones de dÓlares. el presidente dijo que la tormenta era de proporciones histÓricas, y ordenÓ el despliegue de soldados para ayudar. la fundaciÓn univisiÓn se asocia con otras organizaciones comunitarias para proporcionar alivio a largo plazo a los afectados. estos grupos locales entienden las necesidades de sus comunidades y trabajan para ofrecer alimentos y refugios, atenciÓn mÉdica y apoyo emocional. eliÁn: una corte de apelaciÓn de nueva jersey decidiÓ que una pareja gravemente herida en un accidente en un lugar no podrÁ demandar a la compaÑÍa. la corte dijo que ellos aceptaron los tÉrminos de uso de esta firma que proh

that issue and mike pence standing there as they were chanting, hang mike pence, mike pence made the right decision. so senator, it was adjudicated over and over and over. i work with kids long enough to know and i said is a football coach. sometimes you really want to win. but the democracy is bigger than winning an election. you shake hands and then you try and do everything you can to help the other side. that's that's what was at stake here. now, the thing i'm most concerned about is the idea that. imprisoning your. your political opponent already laying the groundwork for people not accepting this. and the president's words matter. a president's words matter. people hear that. so. this issue of settling our differences at the ballot box shaking hands. when we lose being honest about it. but to deny what happened on january 6th, the first time in american history. that a president or anyone tried to overturn up fair election and the peaceful transfer of power. and here we are 4 years later in the same boat. i will tell you this that when this is over, we need to shake hands. this

the firewall was mike pence. not only respecting the constitution, mike pence, being willing to stand up for trump and not do what he was ordering him to do. mike pence was the firewall. jd vance will not be a firewall, and that's why he got the job. >> jd vance is on television basically saying he would help him with another fake elector's plan that may or may not be. jd vance said he will have my prayers, best wishes, and my health. that's what he said about kamala harris and tim walz if they won. whatever you may call it. you are like buddy, your campaign is currently planning to suppress votes, to challenge votes, to use lawsuits to challenge the outcome. i mean that was, i mean, a jarring moment. tim walz had some good moments, but there were some missed moments too. >> i don't think we can emphasize this enough. it is called a bloodless coup. the original move before they resorted to storming the capital was the bloodless coup of trying to get the states or alternate electors without, and throw to the congr

, cuando le dijeron que mike pence estaba en peligro. >> esperamos que el equipo de defensa someta mocioneso que el informe era falso y tambiÉn inconstitucional. y quÉ ocurre luego del desastroso debate de tim walz. fÉlix: se complican las cosas al alcalde de nueva york, eric adams, acusado de corrupciÓn. hoy volviÓ a pedir que le reduzcan los cargos, pero fiscales advirtieron que mÁs bien va a enfrentar cargos adicionales. y que algunos colaboradores tambiÉn pueden enfrentar cargos criminales. el alcalde se mantiene desafiante y buscarÍa la reelecciÓn. reportera: el alcalde ingresÓ a segunda comparecencia en menos de una semana en una corte federal que revisa el calendario de un posible juicio. [habla en inglÉs] >> muy ocupado, la ciudad tiene que seguir funcionando. reportera: afuera le pedÍan que renuncie. en el interior, la defensa reiterÓ la no culpabilidad del alcalde de los cargos de soborno, fraude y solicitud de donaciones, entre otros. y la fiscalÍa respondiÓ que podrÍan presentar mÁs cargos. y que otros subalternos tambiÉn podrÍan ser acusados. los abogados estÁn en un proceso de

let's take a quick listen. >> our institutions also held because of vice president mike pence.used -- [ applause ] >> he refused to violate his oath to the constitution. and that is why mike pence is not donald trump's running mate today. >> i mean, to alencia's point about the cheneys, to hear democrats applaud mike pence, i mean, really speaks to the time because and you're very much involved in the space. putting the country first at this moment has been a critical aspect of not just what republicans are saying but how the harris campaign has picked up that mantle. what are you seeing and hearing as you're going around the country and trying to make the case not just to republicans but also to democrats, and having someone as an example like mike pence to say, hey, this is the right space to be in? >> yeah, i think our country owes obviously a lot of gratitude to mike pence for the courage that it took to make that decision on january 6th and to break with donald trump. obviously, it hurt him career wise. he had aspirations to be president one day. that's likely never going

i think that's why democrats in particular keep bringing up mike pence, and why whenever there's some kind of discussion about january 6th, whether it's a jack smith filing or something, mike pence's name keeps coming up against. >> mark is right, not only can mike pence, he can't be on the stage, he doesn't want to be on the stage. he himself put his hat, name in the ring to run for president and what seems like'ons ago and has been clear he is not endorsing donald trump. you have that, and then you have these concerns that we mentioned about donald trump's ground game and just -- republicans are concerned. it's a close election. how much of a difference can the -- will the ground game make? i mean donald trump has outsourced a lot of his work to elon musk, and let's just be clear, elon musk has done a lot of things. i don't think he's ever got anybody elected. he's never turned out voters. and this is a turnout election. >> yeah, look, there's anxiety on both sides of the aisle right now. >> oh, for sure. >> both for democrats and republicans because we're 19 days away from the elec

it is not just mike pence. you have his notes that are referenced.re people around him to say, he reached out to all sorts of people. we know for instance that after donald trump threatened him, his people reported that the secret service. they understood very well what would happen and they were right. one of the things i found -- >> that knowledge of the possibility of the likelihood of violence? >> absolutely. they understood that is what was going to happen because of what donald trump did in donald trump understood that is why he was threatening. he wanted to use it. this was his last gasp. all of this for power that he was not entitled to. this goes back to a discussion you are having which is you read this submission and it is impossible to think that we have a true existential crisis in this country. the idea that this is somebody who is doing so well running for office when you sit and think how can people not read this unit -- u >> to really call them out. whether it is newspapers. you cover it fairly well. newspapers and politicians and co

, hang mike pence and his response was so wet.re's a striking moment that caught my eye in this filing, where trump says to mike pence, that hundreds of thousands of people will hate your guts if he doesn't cooperate with trump's plan to set aside the presidential election and claim office. that, to me, is a very striking moment because you can beat it either as donald trump threatening him politically, which obviously it was, but you can also read it clearly as donald trump threatening him physically, hundreds of thousands of people, the kinds of people who trump had incited to come and storm the capitol, will hate your guts. in other words putting him in direct fear of his life. and that has been the tenor and tone of everything donald trump has said about the 2020 presidential election. and they continue to organize politically around a big lie. a remarkable thing. there was this woman just sentenced to jail for eight or nine years in colorado. a clerk of court who continued to propound the big lie and the judge statements at t

quote, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done. end quote, it was right over a loudspeaker. and the crowd chanted hang mike pence there's no other leader in the united states of america that has gotten us to the point where there's a mob chanting to kill someone of the same party. one of my concern was conservative leaders, his country's ever seen, right? >> and i called him for decades and i think anyone that has worked with him would consider him to be an upstanding person? >> right? i mean, we can agree on that. >> the comparison doesn't it just doesn't hold up well, again, what you saw jd vance saying yesterday was that big tech he built in his estimation because big tech censored the information about hunter biden's laptop, that that influence the election. >> there's a difference between say saying that big tech or the supreme court or russia changed the outcome of an election and what we saw on january 6, do you think that jd vance has the same kind of character is mike pence, would he have stood up and done the right thing

tweet about mike pence saying mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our kids and street and our constitution. so pooling altogether to say, here's a witness who can point to what donald trump himself knowingly chose to do on january 6 to pressure or to obstruct the certification of the vote to fuel the rioters that were outside of the capital, putting that in a way that is coupled to what is actually known. these tweets from donald trump. they have to draw every single line very clearly in court and they also have to show the court in this brief how these things are not part of his presidential duties, how this was the campaign, and these were things done donald trump was doing for himself and not for the country. >> and just thank you. kaitlan, stick around and let us know when you find more stuff to talk about, just just to reiterate what this is fundamentally about. i understand all the politics of it. but just to understand what this is fundamentally, fundamentally about, at least according to special counsel jack smith the factual proffer

andrew weissmann, regular on our network, he describes smith's new filing as a bombshell because mike pence has emerged as a principal player in all of this. what do you make of how pence gradually tried to convince trump to accept the election results to no avail? and became the subject of those two words, so what, when his life was in danger. you have j.d. vance as his running mate. there may be no one else around to tell him no. >> it proves the reason he chose j.d. vance in the first place. he is there because he will basically act as the opposite of what mike pence did. which was a bulwark against donald trump's criminality. that is why donald trump is running for re-election without the same ticket he did the first time. it puts on full display at the fact that he had to go out and find some other person who would bend to his whims. he proved that on the debate stage when he came forward and said that donald trump did not lose the 2020 election that put on full display why j.d. vance is there. put on full display why he was chosen as his vp. it is because he will do the exact thing do

so in one way, there could be immunity, but in another way, mike pence was the president of the senate on january 6. and so the justice department is digging into interactions that trump had with pants or around pence and i haven't been able to read that much of the filing, yes. we really just got it just a couple of minutes ago. but one of the things that i'm seeing is discussions about how donald trump and others conspirators co, conspirators with him were trying to pressure mike pence. so there's discussion of donald trump's sitting in the dining room in the white house sending a tweet about mike pence also having a private attorney that is very likely john eastman, an attorney that worked with trump after the election as a private adviser, pressuring pence and all of that, the way the justice department is doing this to back it up is they're using people's grand jury testimony, as well as interviews. people well gave to the fbi and also search warrants, things that they did like searched donald trump's twitter account. and so when you put this all together, you get evidenced. we ha

he called mike pence on january 5 and the morning of january 6 and asked him to be tough.der enormous pressure. but the held firm and refused to go along with this. >> there are some newly disclosed details in here. much of it was known from the result of the january 6 hearings. the big question is what kind of impact will this have on the case moving forward? >> now it will be mr. trump's legal counsel's turn to file a response to this and make arguments in opposition. he has argued that for each facet of the scheme, mr. trump's conduct and putting pressure on the vice president, the supreme court has said that is official. they can show through the evidence that prosecution for this illegal pressure on mike pence would not create any danger of intrusion on the functions of the presidency. for every other category, he argues that the acts are private and not official. he can rebut the presumption of immunity by showing the prosecution would have no danger of intrusion on the functions of the presidency. amy coney barrett pointed out areas she thought were private. she tho

one of those people here is former vice president mike pence. and the detailed communications he had between pence and trump are going to be really powerful testimony at trial and they do what clearly jack smith is focused on, the mens rea, the state of mind, which is critical to proving guilt at trial and he's done that here. he shows again and again that trump knew he was lying and mike pence will be a critical witness if this ever goes to trial. >> and those five pages that ken was talking about, that the vice president, then vice president took contemporaneously as this event was unfolding and the jack smith mentioning that they were able to determine what the former president -- what then president was doing on his phone during those hours, that's kind of access to information that you all just simply couldn't have. >> that is correct. and we were both limited by our time pressures, but by our tools, and jack smith has done exactly what we expected the doj to do, which is to go further than we could. >> so, danny, when you're looking at this

we obviously know mike pence is a key part of these charges against donald trump and jack smith. again, alleges that at trump tried to pressure mike pence to overturn the 2020 election and goes into what donald trump allegedly was trying to do on january 6. he sent that now infamous tweet, right? it looks like mike pence not have the courage to overturn the results jack smith writes, quote, it was at that point alone watching news in real time and with knowledge that rioters had breached the capitol building, that the defense and it issued the 2:24 p.m. tweet attacking pence for refusing the defendants in treaties to join the conspiracy and help overturn the results of the election. it goes on to cite a witness who told prosecutors that when trump was informed that mike pence was being evacuated from the capitol, his response was, quote, so what so that sort of gives you a sense of the tone of this, of the allegations in this new filing. it also goes through some additional evidence and witnesses told prosecutors during the course of this investigation as well. it refers to an in

the fire wall was mike pence.nce not only respecting the constitution but being willing to stand up to donald trump and not do what donald trump was ordering him to do. he was the fire wall, j.d. vance will not be a fire wall. that is why he got the job. >> nor would mike johnson. >> he could of said that. j.d. advances on television saying he would help him with another fake electors plan. it may or may not be why he is the runningmate, probably part of it. we have not played it but i wrote it down with exclamation points, he will have my prayers, my wishes and my help. that is what he said about kamala harris and tim walz if they won. that is the alternative universe, whatever you may call it. you are like, buddy, your campaign is currently planning to surpress votes, to use lawsuits to challenge the outcome. i mean, that, that was, i mean, that was a jarring moment, tim walz had good moments but missed moments, too. >> it is called a bloodness coup for a reason. there say bloody coup. they did both. everyone re

i started my tenure at dhs and then served under mike pence, and what i saw from donald trump day in and day out was chaos, instability for the country, and fundamentally, i just felt that he is truly unfit for office. so i felt it is my duty as someone who served in national security to really take a stand for our country and make a difference here, to do everything i can to make sure he does not return. >> do you take the recent valves, which we can get into, but talking about citizens as enemies, abusing power, do you take it as campaign rhetoric lexi or should people take it as a literal warning? >> absolutely not. i think you should take it for what it is. donald trump tells us what he's going to do. he says it out loud. i think you could go back to 2016. and i think it was rhetoric then or maybe just bluster? yes. i thought was one of those people that thought maybe he would grow into the role. but after working things like the el paso shooting, the tree of life shooting, where i saw his words really impacting, having the world consequent is, and watching him, the recklessness

, and they were chants of, "hang mike pence," and the leaders of congress were desperately calling me as the next-door governor to come protect the capitol of the united states. so anybody that wants to whitewash, or still wants to litigate the stolen election, or wants to whitewash january 6th as tourists and nothinreally bad happened, is completely wrong. - one thing that stood out about the vice presidential debate is that it was actually remarkably substantive, policy-oriented, and pretty respectful. - yes. - you know, the difference, of course, is that donald trump wasn't on the stage. and i wonder how much of the vitriol and the divisive rhetoric in our politics today is actually directly tied to donald trump, and whether that yields perhaps a green shoot for a time after trump in our politics, that we might return to some kind of, sort of respectful norm. - well, i sure hope so. but it really didn't just all start with donald trump. i remember in my inaugural address in 2015, i said that the politics that have divided our nation need not divide our state. there was already pret