mikhail zygar, is a former editor in chief of russia's largest independent news channel, tv rain. he left russia in 2022 after the invasion of ukraine welcome. let me first ask you, what what is putin's strategy before we get to the incursion? what do you think he what is his what is his plan? what is his timetable? >> no he has been very much confident that everything is according to his plan. and actually, i've heard a lot that the initial plan was to have a huge success before the american presidential elections and russia we're boasting with their capabilities to take city of kharkiv, which is the second biggest city of ukraine by the end of the summer and put it has no one to blame except for himself because he is really the person in charge of everything. what's happening there he has pointed himself, obviously as the real minister of defense back in may this year. >> so when he looks at this, do you think that this is a kind of strategic setback on the scale of something like the prigozhin mutiny how should we read what has just happened in course? >> it's it's compared to

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more perspective now as we are waiting for this plane to touch down outside of washington from mikhail zygar, who is an exiled russian journalist and also beth sanner cnn's national security analyst and former deputy director of national intelligence, beth just to take a step back and look at how complex this deal was. >> and all of the complicated moves that had to happen to get to this moment. what stands out to you the most? >> i think the number of countries involved in the relationships and the trust that the united states has to have with those countries in order to get them to give up people that they've arrested and the other part of it i think is that the inclusion of russian political activists and dissidents really makes this not just an exchange about spy for innocent americans, but it also is about values it is about what we got back is we are rescuing these political activists and dissidents from basically no, no future, no life and i think that that is something that's symbolic and important yeah. there is a clear contrast, mikhail, the kinds of people who are being swapped he

kremlin has promised for ligand, cnn, berlin all right, i'm here now with exiled russian journalist mikhail zygar to incredibly well source reporter on what's happening in russia. >> you were just sentenced by russia in absentia to eight nap years in prison for criticizing putin's army. given what we saw, we had a vladmir cameras on the other day. if you were there, what would your situation would obviously oh, it would be but you're here. thanks for having me new book war and punishment. okay. so let me just ask you from your sources, this happens obviously sudden, obviously unexpected does this change that you were telling me before we came back from commercial break that there were many in russia and the russian top circles who thought they would, they would take kyiv would fall this year and this changes that i was really really sick and tired of that level of self-confidence. >> i've been hearing from my sources because a lot of people were telling me that by the end of summer, at least city of kharkiv, the mayor the second-largest city in ukraine would fall. and they were connecting that wi