john willis minard from louisiana was elected in 1868. his election was contested, and that is the story that runs throughout the 19th century for so many of these african-american members who were elected to congress. their election was challenged in -- and a number of them had that experience. minard was in february 1869, he was allowed to speak on the house floor to defend himself and his contested election case. the house chose not to seat him or his opponent and he never was seated. but he won the election. the house just exercised its right not to seat him. the first african-american elected to the house and seated in the house is joseph rainey of south carolina. this summer, 1870. december, 1870. following him another 19 african-american members throughout the course of the 19th century. rainey was not the first african-american in congress. that distinction went to hiram rebels of mississippi. he was elected by the state legislature as senators were back in the 19th century. he came into congress in early 1870. but when you think

russman minard, one of my advisors, had a whole series of administrative jobs and when he and i would find a moment to sit and chat, i would listen to him. i realize that i may not want to do it and i certainly did not think i wanted to do it between 1984 and 1989, but by the time i got to michigan i was able to see that it was consequential. i look in the audience and i see a few people that work with me, during that time at the university of michigan. do than was able to also to build a program, but a program that allowed a number of the graduate students with whom i work to understand something about institution building, that is easy to complain about the place that you call home. it's much harder to figure out how to change it. there requires attention to structures, the interaction between structure and culture and how individuals place themselves in those structures and cultures to affect change. ed: now you are presidency of a foundation. how would you compare the two? at the time that i was offered and accepted the presidency of the mellon foundation, i was also contemplating