i think there's been an enormous mark to market, even that disney note by moffat nathanson shows it wasger impact for a company they follow. that's really the story here too, if you believe this is a medium to longer term impact for airlines, i don't know why you have to get in there now >> care ing in the past you've seen value in the airlines, you've been in the airlines. why isn't there value in your view any more? >> i mean, for a lot of the reasons tim's talking about. you know, just the -- operating -- the structure of running an airline, right? it's so capital intensive, the fix costs are very high, and they're not going to be able to get out of that, and then at the same time, you have no clarity whatsoever on when demand will return i believe it will return one day, i really do until then their burn is so high that i don't feel the need to jump in at all >> even for a trade guy adami, these are a no touch >> we've said that for a while, if you look, they have bounced off those lows we made they haven't bounced anywhere nearly commence rat with the broader markets. i say no, and