not a moral high ground. it was a distance. what changed my mind was the financial crisis, particularly starting to change my mind when all of these big banks committed suicide and all should have failed, almost all of them should have failed. up to that.they were exposed to market forces. but i also thought how peculiarity was that the institutions that suck in the best and the brightest, and these people are not on self-interested people. very ambitious people. when bought together they commit -- they were a failure in the way they were brought together. that was interesting, but i saw things that seemed absurd in 1987 or 1988 seemed disastrous now, how much more complex. the consequences for the larger economy, all of that. the kind of steady drain of the soul of the place, much more corporate. i have become, yes, less warm and fuzzy about it. and a lot of times you just sort of her at the mercy of the story that walks in the door. this door. this particular story is so much more black and white. it is not

>> they had a moral position >> what does he need? >> we will get to that in a moment. [laughter] buddy has a moral position that the money ball is a privilege on one level. >> i think it is a book about value. hint how difficult the markets are to place a value on the human being. the billy dee was like that. to have of book about war but he was not thinking right or wrong in a moral way but my math is better than your mouth. >> there is not a moral dimension to someone that says we have misunderstood the true value in the world? >> i say that. he doesn't. [laughter] it is true but what causes you to type the words out in the first place like something is wrong? you have the us since that feels at least to you and that is with a moral concern is that is fair? >> you think i am? >> heavily. >> really? >> but i want 2.0 to go back to list them and brad however you pronounce his last name, there is a common thread that runs through them. don't you think? we met every one of those people have opposition but everybody has a moral position

it was just thinking about morality that caused people to behave so that is the first thing, just moral thinking is an issue. the second thing is that religion helps us. the thing we don't do well is the gray zone. we digress not because we are bad people but because we are people so there is a range of how we are going to see things things in it and attend portents to see things this way. if you are a fan of a basketball team and the referee calls against the team you can't help but see the reality from the perspective of 14 or something like that. it's not about being a bad person but having motivated reasoning. having the gray zone doesn't play well because we can outsmart ourselves. and then the last thing that religion is about forgiveness. we've done some experiments that we give people a lot of chances over time and one of the things we see is people trying to balance, feeling good, and yet at some point people switch and be called the switching point the idea that if you view your self as good or bad it can be 92% good but if you are 73% good is it really worthwhile to move to 8

we are moral people. people are more animals. >> guest: it is interesting to note when people are expressing their deepest sentiments they talk about morality. they don't talk about materialism. not talking about money. they don't quote data and statistics, they talk about what is right, right for them and right for others. if we fail to make the moral case for things we most deeply believe we are not making the best case. this is what has been wrong with the conservative movement for a long time. conservatives have dominated the material case of their point of view. conservative talk about the fact that capitalism, free enterprise, american greatness is the best way to bring the most material abundance to the most people. that is true and that is good but the question is why that matters and the answer is because it is deeply good and moral for people to feed their families, to work with dignity, to support themselves and to live in safety and freedom. these are good moral things to do. not good material

any moral boundaries, it would be out of fear and desperation.n i found that, i was good to go with nisa. she's a desperate woman. ok'd -- could possibly lose her job, her health care, her -- her everything. she's lonely, older. where is she going? and i think that that desperation was the thing that i needed for her to sort of -- for all of her little unsavory behavior to come out. >> you've given a good description of who nina is, the character you play. describe the film for those who are wondering what this "nightcrawler" is and see the advertisements. >> i had no idea but there's a world of nightcrawlers, stringers. they go out from 10:00 to 6:00 and film the most graphic of -- and grisly, everything from accidents to murders, and sell them to the news stations because they get great ratings. i didn't know these people existed. i like to drive around late at night because i love los angeles at night. now i'm looking for nightcrawler. you realize there's a lot of crime that goes on at night, but it sells, and we watch it. it steams somehow in

can we have a revival of morality, not necessarily religion, but morality? in the newspapers we read of hit-and-run accidents every day. that's immoral. this is -- what do you think? can we go back? thank you. >> yeah. i think we can't go back in the sense that we can put the toothpaste back in the tube. and i think sometimes, especially conservatives, think all we need to do is revive ozzie and harriet and everything will be all right. obviously there was really something wrong philosophically speaking in the 1940's and 1950's, because it gave us the 1960's and 1970's, so there was something wrong there. don't get me wrong. i like ozzie and harriet. but i think what we need to do is to do something new today. we need to understand the idoim of our own culture and we need to speak in that language. i'm not talking about curse words. i'm talking about to the values, because people are so confused. i don't think our society is completely morally corrupt. i think if you live on the coast, you might think that. you remember when reagan was elected president and

with that moral? -- was that moral?orry about somebody pulling the rug out from under the cia and the future. >> what is the lesson here? other thanto be, finding truth, the hard questions we need to understand and find answers to in a transparent and informed debate? >> i believe the real issue we should be talking about, the real issue we should be talking about in this case is the morality debate. that is a legitimate debate. was this the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do? senator feinstein believes deep in her heart this was the wrong thing. john mccain believes deeply it was the wrong thing. i respect that. there are other people on the other side, is that bush, vice president cheney, who believe this was absolutely the right thing. >> and mike morell? where he ist know because he was not involved in it. >> john mccain was not involved. >> i have people who say to me, i know you well enough that if you had been put in that situation, you would have done this. i have people who say, i know you well enough,

what's moral equivalency there?ow do you have moral authority when innocent civilians are killed by drones? >> well, i think that the difference here, ed, a stark difference in the way that the united states conducts our policy and the way that terrorists around the world conduct their policy, that there is significant care taking and there are significant checks and balances that are included in the system to ensure that any counterterrorism action taken by the united states of america does not put at risk innocent lives. >> they do in the end. i understand there are safeguards, in the end, seen many case around the world where u.s. drones have killed innocent civilians despite those safeguards. how do you have moral authority? >> i'm saying that is a spark difference from the tactics employed by our enmoyse seek to use car bombs to target innocent civilians. >> no one's defending the terrorist tactics. >> but you're asking about a moral authority, i think there is a -- there is a very clear difference between the

was that moral. so you know, i worry about some of things cia's doing today, somebody pulling the rug out from the c.i.a. in the future. >> rose: we haven't talked about this. some people i'm not sure where you are on this, some people say as part of the push backs say we're now talking about this other enhanced interrogation techniques, which some people believe now even if it was legal then, it was torture. the majority of the people believe it was torture. >> some of them. >> rose: absolutely. there are those who say you know, yes it's a terrible thing for a country to do. it's also a terrible thing for a country to do to take drones and fly them over where they think there are people and be prepared to take out people not knowing who is in the car, not knowing who is in the house because they believe there's one person who is a terrorist, an enemy to america's national security. and that happens the same morality considerations as what was done here. >> so i'm not going to talk about specifics, r

i think it is moral moral to protect americans what the president is doing with dronz is moral action too a lot of people think that's immoral and i think this is lesser nature than collateral damage than killing kids and others when we try to take them out. it gets back to partisan i'm consistent and support president owe a. >> what's the fall out you have cia hor net nest of aerping looking at capitol hill and cia operative saying are you going to support us and us taking will you come out ob our side i think where does this lead to everything. a lot of people that never had their testimony train now going to have foreign governments issuing warrants for their arrests and cannot travel out of the country, et cetera, that is up fortunate ram faixs that hate us and do us wrong and hole it up i think most americans are opt emand they see reality of what wor fighting. and again i just think for something so important it shew have had a more bipartisan police officer to it. >> shew it have stayed secret that's underlying you this it have said something. >> i think in this day in taij doe

the but more recently, a moral reawakening has gathered pace. in 2010, the prestigious institute published a 3-year study of the problem and its problem to clean up the mess. >> i have always believed american's foreign policy has to be based upon onboth our strategic interests and or moral values. and there is no better example of something that's both in our strategic interests and part of or moral values than to clean up mess. >> according to the study, it will take 10 years to clean up the toxins if the u.s. government pays the lion's share of the cost and other funding comes from charitable donations and vietnamese, themselves. institute calculates the toxins can be removed for $300,000,000 u.s. dollars. >> that's less than the cost of the bp oil spill. after decades of dragging its feet, the u.s. authorized spending of $32 million toward the clean-up at the donang air base. clean asking up the worst of the toxic pockets will do little to diminish the dead frill human cost. it's a cost hong kon chu and his family have to pay every day. >> i

firefighter down. >> fellow firefighters drag morales to safety.concussion. >> morales is lucky. sadly, the fire claims the life of the woman trapped inside. >> she tried to come out of the room and she obviously couldn't make it because the fire and smoke caught up to her. >> it's not until alan bell is able to catch his breath that he remembers he's wearing a camera on his helmet. >> once you settle down and all your adrenaline's over, then is when i realized i think i was filming all this. >> the first time i watched it, it was scary, you know, because you see yourself going through this. this is not a good experience. >> both firefighters hope others can learn from the video captured by alan bell's helmet camera. >> my primary goal of the video was to use for training. and that we all should train for the highest level possible. you can see what happens. it's all on camera. >> mayday. firefighter down. >> coming up, h2 -- whoa! >> all of a sudden i feel the blast of water hit me and that was it. >> i think the sprinklers came on. >> when "caugh

what i want to talk about tonight is smith's other boat, "the theory of moral sentiments" i want to give you an insight into his economics and apply them to modern life. what i want to do tonight is give you an idea of what adam smith can teach us about ourselves and the world around us. i want to start with the story, i was in london last week, i think it was last week. it was this year for sure. it was a whirl wind trip. had a great time. never been in london before. i gave a talk at a place called the will society of arts. the royal society of arts is very old. the use to be called the royal society for encouraging manufacturing, the arts and commerce. now is called the royal society of arts and it is to create creativity and ideas and it is a wonderful place. i was giving a talk there and before i gave my talk, i went to the side and they put up the bring, and there were cookies in drinks and often the corner is the only interesting thing in the room and the corner is an enormous green leather chair. it is is this wide with beautiful wooden arms, this gorgeous carving around the top

so how do you have moral authority?ng is it's a stark difference than the ]qñ tactics employed by our enemy who seek to use car bombs to actually target innocent civilians. >> no one's defending the terrorist tactic, but by your tactic -- >> but you're asking about moral authority. >> the moral authority -- >> there's a very clear difference between the tactics counterterrorism tactics bz america that go to great lengths to protect the lives of innocents. >> and the president may face more heat from the left at the upcoming confirmation hearings of loretta lynch who may :foÑree ericz%]ñ holder -- they want tow why the president and his justice department have not pressed criminal charges against former current cia:83 former bush officials involved in these tactics basically saying they think the president's had it both ways. if he believes the tactics are wrong, they should prosecute actual crimes. >> thank you. alan, what about that hypocrisy by the obama administration? >> we have drones and we've actually -- >> i'll

advance our interests around the globe is the moral authority of the united states of america. and the commander in chief concluded that the use of the techniques described in this report significantly undermean the moral authority of the united states of america. that's why the president, on his send full day here at the white house issued an executive order ending those tactics. the other thing that the president did, there's not been a lot of discussion of the lately. i wanted to call it to your attention, the president also threw -- through an executive action asked that the department of justice and 0 a couple other agencies conduct a review of the way that the u.s. government interrogates those individuals who are in u.s. custody. he also urged this task force to conduct a review of the way that individuals who are in u.s. government custody are handled and in some cases transferred to other countries. the outcome of the review that was lead by a career prosecutor identified a couple of things. the first is, he concluded, i think this was in august of 2009. he concluded t

>> the morale is not good. there are so many pressures on them at this time, not just in new york, but american policing in general, that they're being confronted with a lot of challenges at this time. so you can understand why morale might not be as high as you might like it. >> brown: and challenge might be the operative word in terms of what's happening in new york. earlier today you said mayor bill deblasio has lost some of the confidence of some of the officers in the rank and file. what's necessary for him to regain the confidence. >> every officer has had -- every mayor's had strained relations with the police force over the years. it's part of the political terrain. we need to look beyond the morale to the performance of the officers, and this is a reflection of their professionalism, in that they're still out there working very hard, they're policing these demonstrations in the face of great adversity, they're policing despite the horrific murders over the weekend, still going toward the danger, not st

and very quickly go back in the moral issues. americans -- of conservative americans i know of who are frustrated because they feel like welfare is full of people who lie. on the other side, liberals are k that -- that there corporate heads who lie in order to live off government tax breaks. so, we're all looking for some sort of easy explanation to the complexities of the world. and the moral explanations of our interest, at least for a day or so. next up is frank in florida. republican line. frank, go ahead with your question or comment for clarence page. caller: thank you, gentlemen. mister page, i just want to say this. i am 62, white male, retired. i'm currently working in a just neighborhood, and i find that -- i am finding that the black populace, it seems to me, is in denial. the white populace, it seems to me, doesn't want to listen anymore. and i think the biggest problem is there is no conversation going on. it is polarize, and it has just gotten worse since 1965. see it getting better. frank, what does that mean when

so how do you have moral authority? >> what i'm saying there's a stark difference than the tactics that are employed by our enemies who seek to use car bombs to actually target innocent civilians. >> no one's defending the terrorists tactics. >> but you're asking about moral authority -- >> the moral authority -- >> there's a very clear difference between the tactics use by terrorists and the counterterrorism that go to great lengths to protect the lives of american civilians. >> what's interesting is even though the president and his top aides are saying they are very much against these tactics, that they are un-american, they will not quite say from the white house podium that it was torture and that it broke the law. in fact, today u.n. officials were saying that they believe that former cia officials, former bush white house officials, should actually be prosecuted if the white house and if senate democrats believe broke the law, they should face war crimes. but the justice department previously said they're not goi

where is our moral come pus on all of this. we will speak with brian later about the huge sony hack that keeps getting worse and worse. the hackers promming a damning document dump on christmas. details ahead. if you're taking multiple medications, does your mouth often feel dry? a dry mouth can be a side effect of many medications. but it can also lead to tooth decay and bad breath. that's why there's biotene, available as an oral rinse, toothpaste, spray or gel. biotene can provide soothing relief and it helps keep your mouth healthy too. remember, while your medication is doing you good, a dry mouth isn't. biotene, for people who suffer from a dry mouth. which means it's timeson for the volkswagen sign-then-drive event. for practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a german-engineered volkswagen. like the sporty, advanced new jetta... and the 2015 motor trend car of the year all-new golf. if you're wishing for a new volkswagen this season... just about all you need is a finely tuned... pen. ge

they have two choices the moral choice the moral high ground is we are going to do gentle interrogationsare going to have an experiment. we are going to ask khalid shaikh mohammed to help us out in learningywsañ about the plot have been trained. or would you say we can't sk conduct an experiment with the lives of thousands of americans. we are going to do everything in our power and we take on the responsibility and it is a deep and serious one of going beyond the bounds of what we would like to do in order to safeguard the nation. you do not conduct an experiment in gentle interrogation when the lives of thousands of americans are at stake. >> good questions. so much thought. great to see you. thank you. >> thank you. >> the white house backed the release of this report saying we need to look at the mistakes and take the moral high ground. >> see what happens when ed # some of the top democrats say they were never told about the enhanced interrogations. the investigation in to who is telling the truth just ahead. >> just to be carelear you are accusing the cia of lying to you in 2002.

authority and will this help us rebuild the moral authority? >> i don't see that cia is a rogue authority, it was doing what it thos was authorization at the highest level of government as well as legal authority. i happen to think that some of the things that we did were mistakes and whatever the gains at a tactical level we have paid strategic costs here. i do hope that we learn these lessons and whether it's setting up a parallel legal universe at guantanamo bay, the black sites and interrogation techniques that we learn these lessons and we don't go the same road again in the future. so i think it's very, very important to go through this dynamic, and you know we'll hopefully come to some reasoned judgment over time. and the ideal would be, you know, to build this kind of perspective into what we do in the future. >> final question for you: the u.n. special reporteur on human rights and counterterrorism says, as a matter of international law, there should be no impunity or statute of limitations or the torture. is there any possibility that

what is the moral equivalency there?> well, the white house's response will leave you scratching your head this morning. we promise you that. >> he was at the helm when the interrogation tactics started. >> this report says it was not successful. >> the report is full of crap. ex

they do not refer their moral systems to any supernatural entity. yet, they're constantly dealing with the religion. kind of a rift here and i thought, this was what i would like to explore. >> where was religion in your life? >> church, in england, my background was polite and conventional. i used to carry the flag in the garrison church. my dad was an army officer. i sometimes read a lesson from corinthians, i think it was. but i lost all religion. >> you said about writing a new novel, a set of dealings so vague that you cannot even write them down because you might ruin them. >> yes, sometimes wrapping words around a thought is way too suffocate it. creation is a very important element. don't rush into things. have a good idea. sit on it a while if it's a good idea, two months later he was a good idea. >> mold it like a cheese. would you know it is ready? >> when you can no longer stop yourself writing paragraphs. >> this case has a stark contrast between law courts. >> it happens a lot and the more i looked into it, there were three judges, all

of course, using torture, per se morally is repugnant. on the other hand, revealing it is everybody's concern that by revealing it you'll get the enemy riled up. that's nuts. war is war. you do whatever you have to do to win. >> michelle, if we don't, if we don't do this, and we let the terrorist run wild, don't we risk another 9/11 attack, honestly? $3 trillion. we spent a lot of money after 9/11 just to recover. >> well, i question the motivation behind releasing this report. democrats spent $40 million, taxpayers dollars, putting together this report and releasing at a time we are at war with isis. these inflammatory details will own motivate and encourage our enemies to come after us. we've already talked about this and discussed this issue and policy. why open this chapter again? it seems as if democrats are motivated by politics more than the -- what's best for the american people. >> right, right. >> right? if democrats cared so much about the suspected terrorists and their civil liberties and rights, why aren't they up set about t

how do you have moral authority? >> that is a stark difference than the tactics employed by our enemies who seek to use car bombs to actually target innocent civilians. >> no one's defending the terrorist tactics. by -- >> you are asking about moral authority. i think -- >> moral authority -- >> there is a very clear difference between the tactics used by terrorists and the counterterrorism tactics employed by the united states of america that go to great lengths to protect the lives of innocent civilians. many of these terrorist that is we are talking about, again many of these counterterrorism activities that are used against terrorists are targeting terrorists that themselves have targeted local populations, that have targeted fellow muslims in some situations. the efforts that are taken by this administration to limit or prevent innocent civilian casualties are consistent with our values and are consistent with our broader strategy for protecting the american people. >> you said many times secretary kerry, secret

credibility and moral authority around the globe.nd we have evidence that this is -- that the -- that this effect is having an impact on our ability to protect american national security interests around the globe. if the u.s. moral authority had been substantially diminished, we would not have had so much successes in building a coalition of more than 60 countries shall including many muslim majority countries in the middle east joining us in the fight against isil. so, we have made substantial progress but the president believes there is more that we are going to continue to do precisely because u.s. moral authority is one of the most powerful tools in our arsenal for protecting and advancing american interests around the globe. >> [ inaudible ] as we have seen in russia, china, north korea about human rights abuses. will we see any backing away or backing off of the condemnation of the practices in other countries? >> absolutely not. this administration remains as committed as ever to these basic universal human rights. >> react t

we lost the moral high ground. >> you talk about instilling the moral component of this.es on this? >> ronan, bad things happen to good organizations. the real test of the organization is how it resolved to solve the thing that just happened. the united states has had something bad happen. the primary agent appears to be the cia, although there are discussions that other actors were involved. the way to handle it is to investigate it, let the light of day reveal what happened, and then to endeavor not to repeat the mistakes of the past. so i would encourage the cia to at least address the report, at least to address the issues. i -- those men and women in the cia are our patriots. they are great people. they were charged to conduct certain activities. if we want to really take an analysis, it's how the commander, the commander in chief establishes the climate whereby his subordinates execute orders given to them. so i think we need to go to the very top to find out the command climate that was set by the president and the vice president, and to assist the agents who carri

finally morality. isn't if this is an idiot to be spread around and had to be logically compelling and morally persuasive. if that would happen america's promise would be brought to my with the practice. is that what happened they would take on the problem of slavery. the biggest understatement of the year was a big problem for the united states. because it was woven into the fabric of america but yet so fundamentally at odds the declaration of independence is promise of equality put squarely at odds with contradiction of approval of slavery. as early as 18 '04 adam says publicly that abolishing slavery will strengthen the united states but if you do it too soon before the nation is ready will rip them apart. when he does decide to take on slavery that three things have to happen. day don't take it on it will be trade the country's mission. if you wait too long it will stop the progressive vision and also if the country is not strong enough the european powers will rip apart. in the first one is the fo

so morality is almost always based on the situation.l hypocrites to some extent. >> well, so it's -- whether it's newsworthy is generally the test being employed. but what's newsworthy to you and to me is not the same as what's newsworthy to variety and entertainment tonight which covers people like angelina jolie and the sony executives religiously. that's their job. >> that's exactly right. what i'm saying is let's use this analogy. i break into a house and steal a tv set. okay. that's against the law. everybody would agree with that. and then i sell it to you, megyn, for $25 and you know it's hot merchandise. well, you're also breaking the law. but if somebody breaks into sony's e-mail system and steals their e-mails and i put it on the air, i'm not breaking the law because we have the first amendment that lets me publish or broadcast just about anything. but you know what? if it has to do with celebrity gossip, it's sleazy. all i'm doing is the dirty work of those people -- >> what about the racially tinged e-mails -- i think that's

they can actually first of all boost the morale of the young people who have been on those lines forys now, 126 days today. they can also through the power of moral authority call for more and more people to not only join in the streets, but join in the voting booth in order to vote ç for justice. >> and just very briefly, talk about how white churches have been responding, maybe in a different way, very briefly. >> absoluh1éñ i'll talk first about ferguson. when we first started, we actually started by organizing an evangelical network in st. louis that is now deeply embedded and involved in the protests that are happening in ferguson. Ñz i'm going up to new york city to take part in a jericho march, and lots of evangelicals will be involved in that as well. >> lisa, many thanks. >> thank you so much.'½uç in other news, in washington this week, civil rights activists and faith leaders launched a new campaign to end the death penalty. the project is called "90 million strong." the group said capital punishment is a broken system and that it disproportionately affects the mentally i

morality, even if it justifies the end.venting a 9/11, preventing something really bad from happening, where are you on that? >> i think it's immoral. and it's also illegal. it violates the geneva convention. it's a war crime. it's that simple. what we've seen today is the cia basically quarrelling with the release of the report, saying it works, but not taking issue at all with the amazing revelations in this report, some of which have to do with the cia itself, within the cia debating this, people saying they were moved to tears by what they saw, and they didn't want to do it anymore. and the cia bringing in outside contractors to do these things that some cia officials would not sign on to. so there was a big debate within the cia. there was a debate within the bush administration. i find it astonishing. if i had to point to one thing, president bush was not briefed on this until april of 2006 after they had already tortured 38 of 39 detainees. how can we say -- >> who gave the go-ahead? cheney? >> maybe. i don't know. c

so how do you have moral authority?>> what i'm saying is that is a stark difference than the tactics that are employed by our enemies, who seek to use car bombs to actually target innocent civilians. >> innocent civilians. no one's defending the terrorist tactics. but by your -- >> you're asking about a moral authority. and i think there is a very clear difference. there is a very clear difference between the tactics that are used by terrorists and the counterterrorism tactics that are employed by the united states of america that go to great lengths to protect the lives of innocent civilians. >> and the president may face more heat from the left at the upcoming confirmation hearings of loretta lynch, who's been nominated to replace eric holder as attorney general. the american civil liberties union tells me that they want to know why the president and his justice department have not pressed criminal charges against former, current cia officials, former bush officials who were involved in these tactics, basically saying

when it comes to whether it's moral or not, that's a matter of taste and one's own individual moralityt this report shows it didn't do what dick cheney said it did. >> let's watch the two who know about it. mccain and cheney. they disagree about what the tactics used amounted to torture. here's senator mccain, followed by the vice president. >> you can't claim that tying someone to the floor and have them freeze to death is not torture. you can't say 183 times someone is waterboarded, and by the way, on waterboarding, it began with the spanish inquisition. it was done during the philippines war. we've tried and hung japanese war criminals for waterboarding americans in world war ii. >> according to cheney, nothing we did to the detainees added up to torture. chuck todd went through some of the harsher techniques mentioned in the report. >> spent 11 days, two hours, in a coffin-sized box, 21 inches, 2.5 feet. that's on page 42. >> i think that -- >> is that going to meet the standard of torture? >> i think that was one of the approved techniques. >> if another country captures a u.s. so

morale is a big issue. tolstoy once said about the russians. morale is the key.the morale of the american civilian like me tend to be scaredy cats. we're susceptible. we exaggerate the good and the bad. i think this is important because this explains how congressmen act. it's certainly not the cold war. using the weapons of cold war is preposterous. we are going to rely on the military because it's the instrument at hand but i think what we think about what's happening is important. >> well, i don't disagree but i think what you have to be careful about is when you decide, okay, are we going to send men and women in harm's way here. okay? and is it serious enough that we have to worry about it? and the other thing i think that is interesting, and you see in in the debates now, okay, who is helping us in iraq right now? the iranians. okay? don't want to admit it. at the versailles conference there was a british academic his name is sir hendrickson, he said something that i remember. nations don't have permanent friends or enemies. they have permanent interests. ok

that's the way i think about it morally. yes, morally i have issues with having to do something like this, but in extraordinary circumstance, in an emergency when thousands of american lives are at risk, i think it would be to me, the moral choice is to save the american lives, even at the price of the rights of some al qaeda leaders. >> professor, we appreciate it. thanks very much. >> thank you. >>> next on the run-down, big trouble in congress as members take sides on the torture deal. cameron rosen with a report. >>> and do they know the facts or is it a mob mentality? those reports after these messages. >>> members of congress are deeply divided over torture accusations against the cia. joining us, james rosen and cameron. tell me about senators feinstein and mccain, opposite parties and ideologies, but they're together on this. >> i think we were talking about mr. yoo, that was a $40,000 investigation. john mccain is a rare gop ally on the report and its release. mccain was tortured as a pow in vietnam, he has long sai