mr. brainard: yes, sir. mr. cummings: you testified that you were removed from your position and basically that you are demoted. mr. livingston: that is correct. two grades. mr. brainard: and you lost pay? mr. livingston: yes. mr. cummings: how much did you lose? mr. livingston: $10,000 a year and bonuses. mr. cummings: you said right at the end of your, so, you said that they did it right at the end of your one year probation? mr. livingston: yes. mr. cummings: how close were you to the end of the time when they did this? mr. livingston: roughly 48 days. i had served for 17 months, because the secretary of homeland security had announced her retirement, they had frozen all those being certified, putting them into a new security at the time. i was in that position for a long time. both my agency, the bottom line was they removed me and investigated me and when i was clear, they did not reinstate me. they removed me because i had found my senior culpable for -- and i reported another one for sexual harassment, so

mr. brainard and mr. rhodes a question. could one of you give a background kind of how integrity tests are conducted at the airports? i can give you insight. integrity testing in tsa went into high gear shortly after media story about ipads were taking place. and tsa office of inspection, internal affairs will come out and run test items through cash cards, money, dvds, and things like that. so the testing they'll come through with these items and federal security director will get a call and we will be notified of the outcome. generally speaking they'll say we came through with xy and z and can you recover them for us. i'll give you an example, which i think that you certainly will appreciate. one of the items that they are notorious for planting in an airport are pens. they'll throw a pen on the floor and tso picks it up and doesn't turn it in. they'll fly back out a couple of investigators and literally interrogate them and push for a resignation or propose removal for theft, for a pen. and i know this because they've do

mr. jay brainard. deral security director for the state of kansas in the office of security operations at the transportation security administration. mr. mark livingston is the program manager in the office of the chief risk officer at the transportation security administration and mr. andrew rhoades, assistant federal security director for mission support at the minneapolis-st. paul international airport in the office of security operations at the t.s.a.. we welcome you and thank you for being here. if you will please rise and raise your right hand, do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. thank you. you may be seated. let the record reflect that all witnesses answered in the affirmative. in order to allow time for discussion, we would appreciate if you would limit your verbal comment to five minutes. your entire written statement will be entered into the record. we will start with mr. brainard. you are now re

mr. neffenger has made it his priority, end of quote. similarly, jay brainard, a federal security director in the office of security operations in kansas testified, and i quote, that he's a whistleblower. certainly since mr. neffenger has been in there has been a shift in security in trying to get that pendulum to go back so we strike a balance, end of quote. mr. brainard also said, and i quote, "it's important for us to make sure that we reassure our offices so regardless of the fact that somebody's going to have to wait a few extra minutes we still have their back." and we have an administrator who fully supports that. and that is part of the culture he has established with tsa. that's a very difficult job. it's certainly not the most popular job, and we certainly appreciate it, end of quote. i have to say that during my many years on the overside committee i have rarely seen employees simultaneously come forward to report what they believe to be abuses while at the same time commending an individual who is in charge of the agency for his efforts to address t

mr. brainard reported that the relocation expenses for his reassignment, exceeded $100,000 s that true, as far as you know? >> that's my understanding. >> would you agree that is illegitimate use of taxpayer dollars? >> in excess of what should have been spent. i cap any relocation or any reassignment cost. >> how are voluntary relocation decisions are approved now? >> now the process, first and foremost, it has to be looked at by the office of human capital. is there a need for the relocation. second, has the individual that thinking about relocating is that something the individual desires, wants? what is the skill set you need, why would you do that? i have the cfo, chief financial officer signs off on ability to pay for it. has to be reasonable costs. we set limits on the reasonable costs. finally after it gets reviewed by my executive council we make the final decision. >> mr. neffenger sounds like you're developing a plan for the future cleaning up things in the past. probably the biggest thing that concerns me is the issue with mr. hogan. do you believe mr. hogan's performance balan