mr. bugni: there was no driver do not make the opposite -- the observation. >> they are too far away to know if there is a driver. mr. bugni: the record is very clear. i do not know if it is not in the brief. judge kanne: believe me, it is not in the brief. mr. bugni: it is not in the brief. [laughter] >> good answer. that observation, that there was no driver, that only comes after the initial seizure. at that point, all the officers know is there is a running car. feet fromoughly eight the crosswalk but not 15. mr. bugni: there is nothing illegal about a car stopped with the lights on. chief judge wood: presumptively illegal. mr. bugni: i do not think so. it is if it is there for that certain -- that purpose. >> that is the exception. presumptively illegal under wisconsin law to park within 15 minutes -- 15 meters of a crosswalk. full stop. judge sykes: the officers are an required to negate explanation that might prove the conduct innocent. if they see a violation, they can stop the car and