mr. bundy, every state with a sovereign state within the united states of america. >> this is a jurisdiction question, who has ownership of this land. >> there is no jurisdiction question. >> is it the state of nevada or the united states? >> i'm telling you there is no legitimate issue there. the bureau of land management was founded in 1946, and they never owned that land. it was always federal. because of the taylor act in the '30s, they would have had to pay grazing fees anyway. you know this. you've been not paying your fees. they came after you. you can argue it was too aggressive, too military. they say it was in response to threats from you. but you have to look at the situation. you want to be plain spoken and honest, own up to what your situation is. >> i am. and i'll own up to the fact that this is a sovereign state and they do not have jurisdiction. they do not have authority. they do not have policing power and i won't back down on that. i'll take it all the way to the supreme cour

be fair to the men who rally to mr. bundy.aren't armed vigilantes, they didn't take any action at all. and they have the right to carry. so, what they were doing was protesting. and i'm sure you would agree that protesting america, right? >> guns blazed, i would have a problem with that what i'm also say something that if you are the government and i have my -- i certainly have concerns. you know, there are a will the of people that have concerns about government overreach at the same time, i think that if you have individuals who are sitting on the sidelines around the standing on bridges, guns drawn and pointed that raises red flags. >> they believe in him. they believe he in what he stands for and what people don't understand is why the federal government doesn't react with the same sort of force over the problem of illegal immigrants. more of a show of force over cattle grazing fees than you have people who are streaming across our border. and americans don't understand that. >> i'm not sure that's fair. other two presiden

he's not changing his opinion about mr. bundy. bundy has always treated him with respect. how he got into this situation is a mystery. how he talked about land rights and now race relations is a mystery. mr. bundy wasn't asked about this. he started talking about it during a news conference and found himself in this predicament. >> that's a good point that have many people scratching their heads. i want to bring chris cuomo in. dan, stick around with us. chris, i know it was sort of a risk assessment deciding to have him on our show today on "new day." you wanted to let him speak to the comments is that he made earlier. >> i think that i was hoping that race stuff would be a distraction. that's what it is. you can probably -- how do we explain the african-americans standing by his side, the man that's his bodyguard. maybe if you know this is about sophistication than what is in his head and heart. we don't know. maybe this man does. it's certainly something that has to be rejected this type of notion. we all know that. you have to hold him to account because he's become re

senator reid said not only did he not pay the grazing fees, that mr. bundy did not pay taxes either. what's really going on here? >> if bundy didn't pay his taxes for 20 years, i suspect something would have happened to him. i don't think that's likely. you have to handle it in the courts and you can attach property. you can attach bank accounts. you don't have to get his cattle. there are ways of doing this without sending armed s.w.a.t. teams in from the federal government. it can be handled quietly. >> those were scary from the f government. >> those were scary pictures for sure. this is not ending so we're going to keep an eye on that. when we come back, pope francis welcoming thousands of the faithful celebrating easter weekend services. we're live at the vatican. that's coming up next. if i told you that a free ten-second test could mean less waiting for things like security backups and file downloads you'd take that test, right? what are you waiting for? you could literally be done with the test by now. now you could have done it twice. this is awkwar

from oklahoma city, scott shaw, co-founder of the oklahoma volunteer militia, which is supporting mr. bundy through this with you, mr. shaw. there is no doubt he broke the law, that mr. bundy broke the law. there is no doubt it's been adjudicated in court after court after court. every legal expert we have had on the factor said the same thing, the man broke the law. would you agree with that? >> yes. i would agree with that. >> now, throughout our history as i mentioned last night, there have been conscientious on tore who's broke the law. i think mr. bundy may fall into this category. he doesn't believe the law is just. he believes he has been there since 1970, his family, that he is being treated unfairly and he is being oppressed by his government. so, therein lies the next question, mr. shaw. what would your advice to mr. bundy be? >> my advice would be stay true to your convictions. he has a problem with, you know, the government owning the land in nevada. i totally understand that. >> all right. so, he stays true to his convictions, which i believe he will. and then the government at

with that, supporters and critics alike rushed to condemn mr. bundy and his comments. in a news conference late today, cliven bundy doubled down, watch. >> i was wondering, cliven bundy is a wondering about these people. now i'm talking about the black community. i'm wondering are they better off with their young women aborting their children? are they better off with their young men in prison? and are they better off with the older people on the sidewalks in front of her government-issued homes with a few children on them, are they better off? are they happier than they was when they were in the south with their homes and chickens and gardens and children around them and their men having something to do? are they better off? i'm a wondering. that's a question i put before the world. are they better? are they better then? i'm not saying i thought they should be slaves. i never said they were better off. i'm a wondering if they are better off. >> "the kelly file" dug into this a few times reporting how mr. bundy has no legal leg to stand off. the feds showed up on his pr

>> it's the aim old mr. bundyf that happening. >> aren't those offensive comments to you? >> not at all. >> dan simon joins me live from the ranch here in bunkerville, nevada. dan, here is what i want to get back to, the crux of the story, what he should have been paying to the federal government. we know that cliven bundy paid these fees up to a point in the early 90s. why did he stop paying? >> brooke, first of all, bear with us. mr. bundy actually did pay his fees prior to 1993. he paid them for many years. why did things change? the government came in and said that they wanted to protect the dese desert. >> so he stopped paying the fees. the government got totally fed up and they filed a couple of lawsuits against p him. they won the suits and came in here armed with two court orders to remove all of the cattle. they brought in armed marshalls and you had armed militia men on plchl bundy's side. faced with the prospect with a bloody confrontation, it to wade into controversial issues. >> tortoise, some cattle?

it's one that cliven bundy rejects and one that got us wondering how does mr. whether cliven bundy pays taxes or not. the author of 2016 book and joining us from the bundy ranch in nevada. good to see you. we don't know how mr. reid knows that or why he is now so very focused on going after mr. bundy. your thoughts? >> reporter: well, it's a very peculiar situation where you have a cattle man, a rancher and he's being taken on directly from the senator and senate majority leader who is commenting not only about him not paying taxes but in some sense accusing supporters and i'm right among them here today of being domestic terrorists. so the real question i think megyn, i came here as a film maker to see what is going on. we basically see an american clash almost like in the old western movies between the loan rancher on one side and i would say the dubious or corrupt politician on the other and the question is, who is the real crook? who is fanning the flames. terrorism is when you target innocent civilians and when you call people domestic terrorists, you're al

. >> well, it appears that mr. bundy is going to be holding another press conference this afternoon, so we'll see what he says. but at this point, wolf, he's not backing down. how we went from talking about land rights to black slavery is a mystery. and he really put his foot in his mouth and he's paying the price. >> what's the status of the federal government's case against him? >> well, in terms of the background, we know that federal authorities had two court orders to come to the nevada desert and take his cattle because he hadn't been paying his fees for 20 years. when that happened, you had these armed marshals come in to enforce this order. that's when you saw his supporters go nuts. you saw omilitia members come i from across the country to help mr. bundy. in the wake of that facedown, federal authorities, to got perfectly honest, they got spooked. they didn't want a bloody confrontati confrontation. they backed down. they're saying they're still going to continue to press these charges against mr. bundy through

on the bundy rhetoric bandwagon using similar language about government overreach, to trumpet his own problems with the blm in a letter to that agency. and so now predictably a spokeswoman for mr. abbott laura bean said the letter "regarding a dispute in texas is in no way related to a dispute in nevada, of course." governor rick perry said bundy is a side issue. and nothing yet from huckabee. which brings us to hannity, who responded today on his radio show. >> his comments are beyond repugnant to me. they are beyond despicable to me. they are beyond ignorant to me. and my level of anger is about -- you know, go back and listen to democrats, every election year they want to say republicans what? or conservatives what? that conservatives are racist. so people that for the right reasons saw this case as government overreach now are like branded because of the ignorant racist repugnant despicable comments of cliven bundy. >> join meg now is my msnbc colleague, the host of "disrupt," karen finney. former director of communications for the democratic national committee and also a font of adjectives herself when necessary to distant herself as strenuously as possible. just from --

because mr. bundy has had the law not on his side in this dispute, and yet, he seems to have been standing up on principle throughout this dispute. >> well, look, i don't think we can defend lawlessness. it seems clear to me looking at the case that he is in the wrong, at least as far as the statutes are concerned -- >> legally. >> the question is, the question is twofold number ones of prosecuting description, which the obama administration likes to talk about, this is proportionty of response. what is most disturbing of what happened today is the way we trivialized terrorism. this country is the victim of terrorism in recent memory, mass murder attacks to compare the people in nevada to terrorists is just so beyond the pail to me, i just can't even wrap my brain around it. >> no, you actually used to put terrorists in jail for a living. >> real terrorss. >> and this is the same administration that will not refer to the fort hood massacre as terrorism. they say that was workplace violence and yet, the

when you talk to other people in the line of work, same line of work as mr. bundy, when you talk to other people who are using big tracts of land, whether they're ranchers or farmers or any other kind of large land use employed in that way, are you hearing sympathy on the issues for him, whether or not there is sympathy for him personally? >> in fact, some of the ranchers that i met with today and that i've met with previously feel like he is breaking the law, that he's getting special treatment, because we have a lot of responsible ranchers who have paid their grazing fees, who have cooperated to move their cattle to other areas, and were compensated fairly for doing so, but because cliven bundy doesn't want to follow the law he is trying to hold himself out as some type of victim here, and it's not reflective of other responsible ranchers who have done the right thing, who have paid their fees, and who recognize the rule of law. >> congressman steven horsford, dealing with an unusual and i'm sure very stressful situation in your home district with one of your con

they said mr. bundy you lose you have to pay. but mr. bundy said that f that's the law, the law is wrong. i don't recognize the federal government's right to tell me get off this land or pay fees because i've been here for a long long time and my ancestors have been here a long time. i'll pay nevada but not the federal government. it came down to a matter of principle. he didn't think the law was right. you went out there. how tense was it? >> well, you know, the kind of work i do. this was -- i've never experienced anything like this. >> even along the southern boarder where you go? >> i've looked at cartel in the face. this was different. this was different for a couple of reasons. number one, is i'm a new yorker. you're not going to bs me. when i went down there before i'm going to put myself in harm's way, i needed to understand the bundys. these people were willing to die on saturday. they were willing to die. i heard it in their voices. i saw it in their eyes. and that's when i really got nervous because you have americans against a

so, that's why mr. bundyetting a lot of support other than from his friends and from people who believe that the government is a fascist entity from the jump. how do you see it? >> well, it's interesting that the blm was able to make an exception for one of harry reid's largest donors, mr. whitmore and, yet, it can't make an exception because cliven bundy doesn't contribute money to harry reid. is he not powerful. he doesn't know important people. so, of course they will try to make an example out of him. it's interesting, the blm pulled back a little while and center for best of my biolol diversity. this fanatical environmentalist group came in and said, no, no, no. you have to protect the tortoises, you have to. so then the blm initiated again. i think there is a lot behind this. >> let's assume there is a lot of nefarious politics involved in this, i think everybody knows this isn't really worth the federal government's while to send 80 guys out there to round up cattle. knap had the solution. you can't al

how much does mr. bundy actually owe? >> according to the agency, he owes a little over $1 million in grazing fees, and that's a figure that's accumulated over the last 20 or so years since he stopped paying them. >> reporter: and what about the local authorities? what are they planning to do in the next week or two? >> well, the local authorities have not given any indication of what they will be doing, if anything. the local police were at the scene where the standoff was, so that they did have a hand in helping the event reach its conclusion. so, at this point, things have really been kind of in flux. the bundies have indicated the b.l.m. has sent four asserted letters to them that they've chosen not to open at this point. the b.l.m. hasn't said what's in those letters, so, at this point, things are pretty unpredictable at this point. >> sreenivasan: ben botkin from the las vegas review-journal. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> woodruff: in march of last year, the 14-year rule over venezuela by the controversial and

if mr. bundyts to be a protester and take the punishment that comes with his protests, we have had millions of patriots do that in our history. and, you know, conscientious objector, there he is he doesn't believe that federal government has a right to tell him where he can graze his cattle. >> i know that bill. which is a country which recognizes property rights that property that he has been grazing his cattle on is not his property. >> i got it he has to take what comes. he has a right to make the objection. >> he does have the right to make the objection. that's what courts of law is for. he has visited courts of law several times and has lost several times. now he and armed people in support of him one of whom said if there was any trouble they were going to put the women and children out front so that the witness could witness the spectacle of federal agents shooting on women and children. you may think that's just a nice form of protest. that seems to me that's getting out there pretty far.

if mr. bundy did recognize the federal government as existing, he would need to know that this is his congressman, nevada congressman steven horsford, represents the district where mr. bundy's ranch is located in nevada. congressman horsford, i know this is a trying time for you. thanks very much for being with us tonight. >> thank you, rachel. >> so this obviously has become a national story, a very hyped national story. what are the most pressing concerns for your constituents regarding this situation? >> well, thank you for asking me that question and having me on. actually, i spent the day in mesquite meeting with residents who actually live in bunkerville, who are neighbors of cliven bundy, who live in the moapa valley community. and they, like myself, are extremely frustrated by the fact that we have these armed militia in our community, the fact that children in bunkerville, which is a community of only about 1,200, 1,300 people cannot walk around the corner to their school without armed mi

well, mr. bundy who does not recognize the existence of the american government had become a bit of a hero to many on the right. during the many interviews mr. bundy has done with the conservative media outlets there was one thing he forgot to mention. >> i want to tell you one more thing i know amount the negro. i know about the negro. >> jon: what a surprising twist. state's rights, sovereign citizens private citizen clive bundy is as professor of negro studies. now what do they do, they abort their young children, they put their young men in jails, because they never, they never learned how to pick cotton. >> jon: i should have mentioned he is a professor at duke university. david duke university. >> and are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having family lives and doing things or are they better off under government subsidy? >> jon: well, it is an interesting question, i guess history will be the judge. oh, look at that, history already decided and the answer is no. they are not bette

i want to play harry reid talking about mr. bundy and the language that he uses and then mr. ndy's response to harry reid and then get your response. let's listen to both of those. >> there were hundreds, hundreds of people from around the country that came there. they had sniper rifles on the freeway, they had assault weapon, they had automatic weapons. these people who hold themselves out to be patriots are not. they're nothing more than domestic terrorists. >> when you hear senator harry reid call you a domestic terrorist, what do you have to say to the senator? >> well, i guess he's right. i don't know what else we'd be. we're definitely citizens riled up. i don't know whether you could call us terrorists. they're the most loving people i ever spent my life. i just can't see how he gets that type of description out of these people. >> your responses to hear mr. bundy, say, well, i guess i'll be that domestic terrorist for you. these are loving people. >> it's funny that he would even say that he'd take that because the way that the media portrays people like miller and oth

america better wake up if we're going to live in this country with any kind of freedom and liberty. >> mr. bundy owns around 500 head of cattle. they've grazed on this plot of land in southern nevada for decades. but bundy doesn't own the land. the federal government does. and in order to graze cattle on federal land, you have to pay land use fees. bundy stopped paying those fees in 1993. he now owes the government over $1 million. you see, bundy doesn't think the federal government owns the land. in fact, he doesn't recognize the federal government at all. >> i abide by all of nevada state laws, but i don't recognize united states government as even existing. >> the courts disagree with mr. bundy's reading of the constitution and have ordered him to pay for his use of the land like every other rancher does. last year, a federal district court ruled that the blm was entitled to seize and remove bundy's cattle. >> he owes the american people $1 million because he has not obeyed the laws. >> earlier this year they started rounding up some of bundy's cattle that illegally grazed on his land. on wed

i actually was very cautious of mr. bundy. i said look, he has had a 20-year rift with the government. i think we ought to step back before we champion him. and i think that is what people are going to learn from this. that is just because in principle you agree with the idea you might want to find out who the heck he has been for the last 20 or 30 years. and no one seems to want to do that. it was the principle coming down on the little guy and bringing in guns in the waco-type way. and we already saw what happened in waco in history and do we really want to go there again? the money wasted. >> wow, ben -- >> but it is a selective indignation about government overreach. a selective indignation about government over-spending on the little guy. i could make the similar argument about the immigration, and war on drugs saying we're picking on the little people. >> that is a little different than grazing rights of cows. >> that is not the argument here, the point, ben, when we talk about this guy i could argue he is take willing l

>> i don't think there was any knowledge or fore thought what mr. bundy thought about these issues and certainly bringing martin luther king into it is the height of ignorance. that martin luther king would be standing side by side with him on this point. i can't speak to it and i don't think that rand paul or sean or anyone else had any idea this is what his views were or how he ultimately felt about black people, seeing black people sitting in their neighborhood on a stoop and thinking they would be better off as slaves. that's the height of stupidity. for a lot of these folks, the initial cause celeb about the constitution and his rights to be the rampbler and to defend his popularity. >> he had a beef with the federal government's continued overreach. and suddenly this became a question when he made some inappropriate comments. that's absolutely ridiculous. >> here's a guy standing up and making a huge issue of it. >> the republican party wouldn't have the pob it has with the cliven bundys in its midst if a grown-up had come up at the beginning when t

have we seen this massive show of force with sharp shooters and snipers, with some guns aimed at mr. bundy, his family, innocent protesters and friends and the news media? because the government instead of using the least force necessary, which is what the rule of law is, is using the most force possible because they want to intimidate the bundys. i'm convinced he cannot be intimidated. they want to intimidate others and they're probably a little unsure of themselves, sean, so they're compensating for that lack of certainty with this massive stalinistic like use of force. >> 200 plus armed agents, as you say, sharp shooters and snipers here. dead cattle as a result of this. dogs were used and then we have people hit with stun guns by some of the blm officers there. i didn't want to see the officers hurt. i didn't want to see the protesters hurt and seemed all for nothing. this is not an isolated case. we did a whole series on imminent domain, some we highlighted tonight. the government is taking property from people in colorado because they want open space. they're taking property that a w

mr. bundy's cattle because he hadn't paid his grazing fees.when that happened you in militia groups from all over the country and standoff with the federal government. the government backed down and put the cattle back and that is where we are at. he says they will pursue mr. bundy by other means. >>> two big things happening today in malaysia. the search continues for the missing airliner. it is day 52 since the plane van issued. two, the president of the united states is there. he arrived in kuala lpur. >> how much of this, jim, is good measure and much is partnership building? >> i think it's a lot of both. when you haven't had a u.s. president since lbj to visit malaysia, it's time to get to malaysia and it's part of mr. obama's visit about this visit. one, a big pacific trade deal that the president wants to get ished out and malaysia is a key partner in that trade deal so he'll talk about that when he sits down with the prime minister in this country later today before both men have a news conference. don, he has touched on flight 370. t

the question is will more lawmakers, more pundits who have supported mr. bundyow back away from him? >> it's pretty clear that they don't have very much of a choice and that was the risk for these politicians in the beginning who were sort of supporting cliven bundy. he had become sort of this cause especially on the right when i was in new hampshire for the americans for prosperities forum earlier this month mike huckabee, former governor of arkansas mentioned him and there was an applause line and that is not something that will be acceptable or less acceptable going forward. we'll see if more people start to step out and i think for senator rand paul in particular, saying that he wasn't quick enough on the draw in condemning this. the reason why we have a statement from him today is because the times story said that the senator was not immediately available for comment after the newspaper called and related these remarks to him so that is potentially a problem for him and paul has encountered some issues with race in the past. he had a staffer who held a radi

this is in one sense i'm going to defend mr. bundy, shock, shock. i'm going to defend him against all those who would pour upon his head and heap upon his body their outrage, even their calumny, their associated, if you will, just vigorous aggressive denunciation of him. hold on now because he is expressing explicitly what many people hold close to their breasts. he is having the nerve or perhaps the ignorance to articulate out loud what many other people hold very closely and will never say. so what we have to do here then is not simply to scapegoat this man but to talk about him as a lynchpin or even a flash-point, if you will, to mix metaphors, to talk about him revealing many racialized attitudes that are deeply entrenched in american society. >> you know, i thought about -- and our second producer todd cole found this. this was a little bit of a firestorm in 2011 during the republican primary. there was a marriage vow from bob vander plaats, family leader, that was signed by michele bachmann and rick santorum. and this is actually a bit of a tr

now, you said that mr. bundy is probably wrong on the law. is that correct? >> yes.st two cases before the same judge. the issue was who opens the land. >> right. >> the federal government, the state of nevada, or him? both cases say the federal government. >> and that's because after the mexican a lot of land was given to the federal government gratuity. >> that's why they have a lot of federal stuff going on over there. on the law i don't think there is anybody who says that mr. bundy is going to prevail. is he not. and even in the nevada constitution the state constitution, it affirms that the federal government has the right to this land. did you know he that? >> yes. and that was a condition of nevada becoming a state. >> a state? >> correct. >> so there is no way bundy is going to win this on legal terms. now, that means he owes a million bucks. now, he is never gonna pay the money. and you say and i thought this was good. you know, that's. >> wait a minute, i said something you thought was good? >> that's why you are here. you said the way to handle this is to

the same old mr. bundyhe first day of all this this happenings. >> aren't those offensive comments to you? >> not at all. >> reporter: dan simon, cnn, bunkerville, nevada. >> dan, thank you very much. and you're going to hear from cliven bundy himself. he will be live on "new day" in the 8:00 hour. is he changing his position or sticking by it? chris? >>> all right, kate. big stories going on, suggestion russia is trying to starred world war iii, a hijacking scare, and the prime minister of malaysia speaking exclusively to us on flight 370. us on flight 370. let's go. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com >>> incident was caused by a disruptive passenger on board a virgin australian boeing 737 flight. >>> we will search, we will spend as much as we, can as much as we can afford, to find the missing plane. >>> what do you concretely want from the malaysian government right now? >> the truth, what they are hiding. >> what you've seen is the government in kiev doing what it said it would do. >> reporter: tensi

you have mr. bundy saying his family has been on the years before the feds came along. >> i think it's extremely complicated. i grew up with a family that continues to utilize blm grazing opportunities. it's something that the rural america understands a lot more than anybody sitting on any big city on east coast can understand. congress it seems like, why doesn't he pay the fine? i think he is in arrears for 20 years for these fines. you and i probably wouldn't be able to get away with that with the irs if it came down to it, but i also that it believes that central planning does not work well. so the states -- those farmers, those ranchers know how to use the land better than anybody else. they are environmentalists. they it's not going to have a care about tortoise. i think the government finds some sort of common sense way to dehe is late the situation so people can calm down and i understand why they were upset. to get a crowd like that, we just showed on that town hall on weekday an, it shows peop

they should garnish the estate, when mr. bundy passes away.hey can take what they are owned. >> it seems to me like the government wanted to provoke. i know he didn't pay his fees and they have been patient with him but seizing the cattle in the most dramatic fashion. >> during calving season. >> i don't think it's a winning issue for harry reid. i know why it's being -- why would he sick his nose in something that just from a p.r. perspective does not look right. it looks like the government is bullying this cattle farmer mr. bundy, i'm very sympathetic with. he's trying to make a living. he's got to change the law. it's not okay to break the law if you don't like it. >> i don't feel sorry for the guy at all. he's a tax dodge. he ought to be subpoenaed and indicted. the fact of the matter is people who don't want to see this happen -- >> you know what they are saying about al sharpton. he owes $1.9 million and the president went to an event praising him. take his cattle? what about about al sharpton? >> where are you on amnesty for illegal im