mr. chairman. the leaders on both sides of this committee previously had regular meetings and calls with sitting hhs secretaries. i see mr. levitt who went out of his way when he was secretary to have those kinds of meetings and sylvia burwell and a whole host of democratic secretaries did the same thing. i would like to just note as we wrap up that in my meeting with mr. azar yesterday he noted that he wasn't going to go along with the last hhs secretary who broke that bipartisan tradition. to the democrat -- detriment of the senate and mr. azar said he was interested in having those kinds of meeting that he would revive so mr. azar, thank you for being here. d >> here to introduce mr. azar are two distinguished former secretaries of health and human services. we'll first hear from former secretary thompson. it's really great to see you again. been quite a while since i've seen you. we had a lot to do with each other way back when. but you served as the head of hhs from 2001 to 2005. prior to that

mr. chairman. and i very much appreciate your convening the hearing. and colleagues, this is the first time we have been together since chairman hatch has announced his retirement. and i would just like to take a moment, as we talked on the phone, to say publicly what i mentioned to you. first, you have always been a gentleman. every member of this body feels that. we know about your passion. we know about your dedication. we know about the fact that you have always had an ear for your colleagues. often when you and i talk, you say, what are my democratic friends up to? who should i be listening to? you're always there with an ear. and i would just like to note something i don't think everybody knows. but chairman hatch was a boxer, and basketball players know a little bit about endurance. but colleagues, just picture 40 years in the ring. 40 years of boxing. that is real endurance. so i'm sure we're going to have other colleagues talk at greater length, but since this is the first time we have actu

mr. chairman. the leaders on both sides of this committee previously, have had regular meetings. a whole host of democratic representatives did the same thing. when i wrapped up the meeting with mr. azar yesterday, he noted that he would not go along with the last secretary. azar without any prompting said that he was interested in having those kind of meetings. beingar, thank you for here. thank you for our meeting yesterday and we look for to your statements. >> here to introduce mr. azar are two distinguished secretaries from hss. >> it has been quite a while since i have seen you. you served as the head of hss from 2001-2005. servedo that time, he four terms as the governor of wisconsin. the longest tenure of anyone in that state's history. as governor he was the pioneer of a number of initiatives including welfare reform which gained national prominence. as the secretary of hss he said initialaw the limitation of medicare part d. next, we are going to hear from a very personal hear from -- of m

mr. chairman. the leaders on both sides of this committee previously had regular beatings and calls with sitting hhs secretaries. i see mr. leavitt who went out of his way when he was secretary to have those kinds of meetings, and sylvia burwell and whole host of democratic secretaries did the same thing. i would like to note as we wrap up that in my meeting with mr. azar yesterday, he noted that he wasn't going to go along with the last hhs secretary who broke that bipartisan tradition, to the detriment of the senate. and in my view good policy. and mr. azar without any prompting said he was interested in having those kinds of meetings that he would revive. so mr. azar, thank you for being here. thank you for meeting yesterday, and we look forward, your statement and questions. thank you, mr. chairman. >> here to introduce mr. azar are to distinguish over sectors of health and human services. we'll first or from former secretary thompson picky tru great to see again. it's been quite a while since i

mr. chairman. >> mr. chairman, thank you, thanks for holding this hearing, and i want to thank the secretary for being here also. i think this committee's done a great job. i want to thank you both you and the ranking member. we've passed out, i think, this session, ten pieces of legislation, some which have been mine, and all of them have contained my priorities. i just want to tell both of you i really do appreciate being part of this committee and for the leadership we have. this committee has passed legislation, for example, that have already been mentioned like the g.i. bill for life, access to s.t.e.m. programs in education, which was also mentioned. but also the appeals process for faster disability claims efforts. and i want to thank you, mr. secretary, for your hard work and effort on that. but clearly the work's not over. this committee has already shared that with you a few times. you're getting to your first year anniversary. i actually believe it's february 14th. i don't know what you'll be do

mr. chairman, i reserve and have he right to close. the speaker pro tempore: the gentlelady from new york is recognized. mrs. lowey: i yield myself one minute to close. the speaker pro tempore: the gentlelady is recognized. mrs. lowey: my friends, congress has a response to believe the informs in initiatives to defend the country and grow the economy, instead of continuing down a rudderless path of c.r. after c.r., we must pass a bipartisan budget agreement prork tect dreamers which will enable the appropriations committee to responsibly write full-year funding bills. i urge a no vote and yield back the balance of my time. the speaker pro tempore: the gentlelady yields back the balance of her time. the gentleman from new jersey is recognized. the gentleman has five minutes remaining. mr. frelinghuysen: i yield the balance of my time to the chairman of the energy and commerce committee. the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman is recognized for the balance of the time. >> thank you to my colleague for your hard work and cooperation on this

mr. chairman, mr. chairman, i have a letter that the arkansas department of environmental quality sent me yesterday in support of epa's recent decision to approve arkansas's revised regional hay state implementation plan. quote the letter "arkansas applauds the epa's recent improvements in regard fostering increased cooperation with the states in order to achieve environmental goals in a sensible and practical manner." i'd like unanimous consent to enter the -- >> without objection. >> thank you, mr. chairman. administrator, i was very happy to see the epa approved arkansas's revisions to the regional hay state implementation plan. many in arkansas are thrilled that we now have an epa who's willing to listen to the states, and are excited to proceed towards the goal of improving air quality. in the past we've had a situation where the epa wanted to hear input as long as the state agreed with them. if not then they got themselves in trouble. can you explain your approach to cooperative federalism, and th

mr. chairman. >> thank you. before turning to senator young, what the russian concerns about assad, do you think russia cares greatly about assad himself or just having a syrian leader period that they can deal with? >> senator, i have worked with the syrian puzzle since 1983. my view is that the russians, above all, as the soviets before them, treasure stability and fear chaos. assad represents in their eyes, i believe, a source of stability at a very high price and we would argue, ultimately instability as a generator of further violence, radicalism and terror, but i think that's the prime motive. it's not assad, it is stability and an end to threatening chaos. >> senator young. >> thank you, chairman. good to see you, ambassador, thanks for being here today. >> i think a lot of hoosiers will be watching this hearing with great interest. on january 2nd i attended a ceremony for the -- the 38 sustainment brigged a of the national guard. we are sending 250 of our best men and women in uniform into kuwait to supp

mr. chairman. thank you very much. i want to personally commend the panel for not only appearing today but for doing this very difficult, challenging, work. i mean, you just -- you're amazing. mr. clancy, your testimony suggests that regional veteran collaboratives are part of the solution to ending veteran homelessness. what are those and why do you think they're needed? >> thank you, ma'am. the veteran collaboratives as we mentioned not only here in cincinnati with but also combined arms in houston as the congressman mentioned are critical because it enables the community to come together in a collaborative sense to provide the best of services for the veteran. we can combine best practices, different organizations receive different funding and we can as best we can move upstream to get those transitioning veterans before they become in crisis mode. >> thank you. mr. chairman, i yield back the balance of my time. >> thank you, mrs. radewagen. we'll yield five minutes to ms. kuster. >> thank you, mr. chairman. delighte

mr. chairman. before i introduce mr. speaker to the committee, i would like to say a few words about today's hearing. this morning the subcommittee is examining freight movement, assessing where we are now, and where we need to go. freight is a vital part of america's economy, and i thank chairman inhofe, ranking member cardin, for holding this important hearing. everyone benefits from goods being shipped on our roads, across our bridges and through our ports. the freight industry how allows for products to go from the heartland to the coast and even across the world. this hearing will underscore the need to upgrade and maintain our highways and shipping lanes. addressing america's aging infrastructure is a shared, bipartisan goal of this committee. this year alone, the environment and public works committee has held seven hearings on the importance of modernizing america's infrastructure. we have heard testimony on the infrastructure needs of both rural and urban communities. the new innovative building techniques being

mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. chairman, you know any time we have a committee talking about acquisition, i have to bring out my favorite prop and remind everybody of the actual pages. almost 700 pages. ten years to define a handgun, next generation handgun. and i just found out with the update, good news is, we've down selected, we've got a manufacturer, and ten years from now, all the army units will actually have this gun. 20 years after it was conceived by the air force. first off, i thank you all for your service. welcome. but we know there's no logical basis for something like this for something as straightforward as a handgun. a 20-year process from concept to full deployment within the army. i don't even know what it means for the whole d.o.d. but within the army. so, senator mccain and his opening comments said, with the exception of senator reed, he would like for you to talk with all of us. i think that's what he said. but no, in all seriousness, as somebody who's worked in procurement, as somebody who's

mr. chairman. mr. mcgovern will be joining us as soon as he can. i'm happy to see such a wonderful crowd here this morning to talk about something that we all talk about for years. i am basically here this morning. i want to hear and will take notes. i imagine with the caliber of witnesses we have here, there won't be a lot of questions to be asked. i'm sure you're going to be very succinct and quite clear. so i'm happy to be a part of this this morning and thank you, mr. chairman. i yield back. >> outstanding. i thank the gentle lady. this is a time, as you think you said, as we listen. now i would like to yield to the distinguished chair of the rules committee, pete sessions. >> and i want to thank the members who have not only agreed to be here today but for the intense interest in this issue. chairman collins, thank you very much for not only chairing this member feedback session but also for your discussions that we've had with the entire rules committee on the process that we're currently goin

mr. chairman. thank you, mr. norquist. this is a very encouraging day, a day we've been waiting on a long time. i certainly want to commend the char chairman and ranking member and my colleague, mr. conway, for his leadership on this. certainly, we are facing so many threats around the world and we need more dollars to modernize and increase our readiness. but at the same time, i hear back home concerns about waste. and anytime there is waste, we need to make sure that it is rooted out and that we're investing our precious defense dollars where they need to go. so this process you're leading is critical in this effort. so you noted that one of the chief benefits of the audit process is improved accountability of the assets and resources. i was wondering, are classified as assets p s part of the audit process? >> yes. classified programs are included. i'll also tell you that all of the defense intelligence agencies have standalone full-scope audits. and most of them have been under audit for three years. but being a classifi

mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator boseman. let me take the liberty if i can of asking gretchen blum to stand up behind me. gretchen has been with the committee since i came to the committee as chairman. she is going to greener pastures in oregon, a beautiful coastline. lots of veterans and lots of people. she's been a tremendous help to veterans and this committee. thank you for your service. >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. appreciate it. thank you for being here. i need to bring something of a local interest to your attention. high risk contacted my office after bypass surgery was canceled. johnson clarksburg veteran, great hospital. the reason being that the spots were found on the tools processed. let me tell you the time elapsed. we've been told that they've estimated it's been ten weeks since a temporary -- just before a temporary sterilization unit will be operational. it will also take a whopping 16 to 18 months to replace the one that's deficient. it's been reported up to five level. that's your region. i don'

mr. chairman and mr. norquist for being here. i want to thank the chairman. it is a massive undertaking come along overdue. i hope we will focus on the things that improve the processes going forward. some of those number one are oca. there is a lot of rim, even when people are trying to do that right for abuses. i am more concerned about the unintentional, which people do not know. how far back are you going to the start of the audit? >> when you look at dollars in fy-18 they will be auditing money we received in fiscal year 18. look at assets acquired, it does not matter when they were acquired. >> very good. from having served quite a long time, i think some of the -- i understand the process, at the end of the year spent all the money or you lose it. that needs to be a recommendation that you don't lose it, so we can spend that money wisely. there are some things, acquisitions, where it is important to carry that money forward, as long as it is earmarked for allocated to a source, even though it is not spent yet, rather than having to rush and spend it on

mr. chairman -- mr. secretary. north korea, we recently -- we're seeing stories now -- yesterday or today's "wall street journal" reports, behavioral changes by the regime in north korea that might be linked to the sanctions that are making fuel, for instance, more difficult for them to obtain. i hope that's true. i think that strikes me as constructive, but i and my colleague on the committee from maryland, senator van hollen, have legislation called the brink act which i think you are aware and which your staff has been very helpful. this would require new additional round of sanctions against financial institutions that are facilitating business with north korea. i think this is very important, and i hope you'll support our effort to get that done. it came out of this committee with unanimous vote, i believe. secretary mnuchin: thank you.se senator heitkamp. senator heitkamp: thank you, mr. secretary, for coling. -- a couple follow-on secretary, for coming. just a couple follow-on points. no one wants to limit t

mr. chairman and mr. norquist for being here. i want to thank the chairman. it is a massive undertaking come along overdue. i hope we will focus on the things that improve the processes going forward. some of those number one are oca. there is a lot of rim, even when people are trying to do that right for abuses. i am more concerned about the unintentional, which people do not know. how far back are you going to the start of the audit? >> when you look at dollars in fy-18 they will be auditing money we received in fiscal year 18. look at assets acquired, it does not matter when they were acquired. >> very good. from having served quite a long time, i think some of the -- i understand the process, at the end of the year spent all the money or you lose it. that needs to be a recommendation that you don't lose it, so we can spend that money wisely. there are some things, acquisitions, where it is important to carry that money forward, as long as it is earmarked for allocated to a source, even though it is not spent yet, rather than having to rush and spend it on

mr. chairman. and i thank you gentlemen for joining us today. it's good of you to take your time to come and give us the benefit of your knowledge. my own concern, obviously, was just simply a matter of timing. facing a government shutdown that is frightening and that, again, is money we spend, pretty much consumes most of our minds, i think. so, we pretty much are here just to listen. and i have to excuse myself for a moment because they are doing a reception for the former head of the securities exchange commission, janet yellen, and i need to just go skbi pby and pa respects but i am very anxious to hear what you say and i will look at the record to find that out should i miss anything before i get back. but in any case, thank you for taking the time. it is an important subject. and i think the chair made it very plain that what we're trying to do -- except i would say, in this shutdown facing us, the third one manyin my time th i've been here. the first one, if you recall, speaker gingrich did n

mr. chairman. thank you for holding the hearing today. you've got your work cut out, if you're already bored of the state of the union coverage, stay tuned for what we're dubbing the republicans versus the congressional budget office, in "the washington post." it's hard to see how we get from where we are to where we want to be, and i thought my friend from california accurately expressed her frustration about partisan attacks on the budget office and then went in to use the cbo, the cbo data to make partisan attacks on bills and i think that's-- i think that's a challenge. when i go back and look at '74 act i think you said in your opening statement, director, the cbo was created to give congress a stronger role. i think the budget committee was created to give congress a stronger role and the budget committee, you were to be the staff of the budget committee, joint shared staff between the house budget committee and the senate budget committee. isn't that the origin car nation of the cbo? >> yeah

mr. chairman. just to put a fine point on the question that i raised regarding speaker ryan's comments, i take mr. burns' point and i was trying to make the point that dean young made and that is that whether or not the speaker is inclined, i'm hopeful that show less text 01:50:18 alcee l. hastings alcee l. hastings the proceedings here will assist in his judgment as to whether or not we should go forward. rather than have an exercise in futility. mr. walker, thank you for coming back. back in 1916 -- 2016, we reformed the manufacturing tax breaks. i believe you were a supporter of that particular measure. last night there was a measure on the floor, some miscellaneous tariff measure that's taken place after the reforms. my question to you is, apparently that process allowed that it would go forward and would contemplate not violating at that time any earmark or consideration. how do you reconcile your support of that process, or would you agree that some outside mechanism that would bring us to a b

mr. chairman. thank you and i thank the chairman. the chair: the gentleman from minnesota is recognized. -- the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman from minnesota is recognized. mr. el sn: as i mentioned efore, the home mortgage disclosure act, the underlying bill, the bill that is being amended today didn't drop out of the sky. we had demonstrable discrimination, that's why we had it. in this bill, the home mortgage disclosure adjustment act, completely different piece which i argue back slides on our commitment to fair housing, would undermine our ability to stop discrimination by exempting 85% of the nation's banks and credit unions and 48% of the nation's nonbank lenders from having to follow the data requirements. and what are these reporting requirements? they're things that banks collect already. they're pieces of information being requirements. collected n. all they have to do is take one piece of paper that they've already prepared the documentation for and put it into another document. that's it. now, the applications borrowe

mr. chairman. >> senator johnson. >> you, mr. chairman. dr. hall, i want to go to kind of the question the chairman was engaged in. in terms of who decides what you score. i guess, who do you report to? the reason i'm asking is that after the election, knowing that we are going to be bring up healthcare, started to request scores on what would happen if we were to repeal market reforms? i did not get very far. on march 23, 2017, i sent a letter to you. signed by the chairman and 20 of my other colleagues. 22 republican senators requesting, pretty simple, we requested the congressional budget office in consultation estimate their budgetary effects of repealing the obamacare insurance regulations. now, you are where the reason we need that, first want to understand what policies might cause, but also there is no way that we could even bring it in front of the senate we do not have a score to present. so this is a basic piece of information we needed. i want to know, why did we ever get that score? again, this is four months before this came to a

mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator nelson. and we do appreciate the great panel of witnesses we have in front of us today. thank you all for being here. on my left and your right is ms. monica bickert. ms. juniper downs, head of public policy and global relations at youtube. the director of public policy in philanthropist u.s. and canada for twitter and mr. clinton watts, a senior fellow at the foreign policy institute. i'm going to start with ms. bickert and we'll move across the table. if you could confine your oral statements as closely to five minutes as possible. any additional comments, obviously, will be included as part of the record. it will give optimum time for members to ask questions. thanks so much for all of you being here. we look forward to hearing from you. ms. bickert? >> thank you. i'm monica bickert and i lead -- i'm also a former federal prosecutor, having spent more than a decade as a assistant u.s. attorney for the department of justice. the issues we're discussing here tod

mr. chairman. mr. arrington: no closing comments? mr. takano, i'll give you more time if you have any follow-up time or comments. mr. takano: mr. chairman, thank you for the spirit of this hearing. i congratulate you on that and hope we can continue and i respect your free market -- i really respect your free market views. i do entertain the thought that some of these products could be useful to some veterans and we don't want to be overly aggressive in regulation. but, again, we're talking about taxpayer resources that we have to protect. mr. arrington: that's right. that's right. you know, it's good we can agree like this, huh? let's somebody get a picture. is this on -- is somebody recording this? it's true. this is a space where we need to engage on behalf of the taxpayer because of the full faith and credit and we need to strike that balance. that's why i asked the question of defining it. how do you define this because if somebody was charged any fee, they may say, hey, i shouldn't be charged for this, but there is a cost for the i

mr. chairman. >> i have one question. senator blumenthal has two questions, and then we'll be done with this panel. i'm going to ask mr. lindquist and mr. fine, when dod inspector general issued a report in 2015 showing that the department of defense had serious nics reporting issues, what did the obama administration do in response? either one of you. start out, and then both of you answer it. >> well, i don't know what the obama administration did. we made the recommendations to the services, and it's quite clear that the services did not take appropriate action to follow up on those recommendations. >> mr. lindquist. >> i don't have that answer in front of me, senator. i came into office here in april, so i didn't look back that far to see what was taking place there. >> would you answer in writing? >> we can, yes, sir. >> then i have two questions i'm going to submit to the panel for answer in writing. senator blumenthal. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i will be very brief because we have a panel afterward, but i would li

mr. chairman. >> gentleman from alabama, mr. gary palmer. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to get away from the partisan jabs and get to issues that i think all of us ought to take very seriously. one of them is your report of 2017, the long-term budget outlook. you pointed out that -- this was about a year ago, that gdp was currently 7.7%. is that where we are? >> yes. >> you also pointed out in 30 years that the gdp will be 150%. >> yes. >> and for anybody who is still awake at this point, watching this, i want to point out that this means our debt will be bigger than our entire economy. is that correct? >> that's right. >> is that a serious problem? >> it is a serious problem. it's a serious issue that it's not getting better. >> would you suggest that this committee might ought to be taking a very serious look at how we scale that back instead of talking about what we did last year or year before last? >> i want to be careful about making recommendations to the committee. >> you put out the r

mr. chairman. >> thank you mr. chairman. >> thank you for the upgrade. [ laughter ] >> i would actually like to begin by adding my concern to those that you and the ranking member have expressed about the unwillingness of the department of defense to send a witness to this hearing. i serve on the armed services committee and we have heard consistently from secretary mattis and that he and secretary tillerson talk on a regular basis almost daily and that they are working closely together to address the conflict areas we have in the world so it seems that it's in everyone's interest to present that united picture before congress as well as to do it privately and so i think we should lodge a very deliberate -- send a letter expressing our concern to the department of defense about their unwillingness to be part of this hearing and i hope you and the ranking member will consider doing that. >> thank you. ambassador, thank you for being here. do i understand from your testimony and from what you submitted in written form

mr. chairman, i reserve and have he right to close. the speaker pro tempore: the gentlelady from new york is recognized. mrs. lowey: i yield myself one minute to close. the speaker pro tempore: the gentlelady is recognized. mrs. lowey: my friends, congress has a response to believe the informs in initiatives to defend the country and grow the economy, instead of continuing down a rudderless path of c.r. after c.r., we must pass a bipartisan budget agreement prork tect dreamers which will enable the appropriations committee to responsibly write full-year funding bills. i urge a no vote and yield back the balance of my time. the speaker pro tempore: the gentlelady yields back the balance of her time. the gentleman from new jersey is recognized. the gentleman has five minutes remaining. mr. frelinghuysen: i yield the balance of my time to the chairman of the energy and commerce committee. the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman is recognized for the balance of the time. >> thank you to my colleague for your hard work and cooperation on this

mr. chairman. and mr. chairman, to begin with, i would ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a letter i sent to you and the chairman of the full committee on december 8 requesting that a witness from the department of treasury be added to this hearing. >> without objection. >> thank you. while i look forward to hearing from today's witnesses, i believe there's no substitute for hearing from the people who actually are administering sifius. i have given treasury a very hard time in this committee, some of you may recall, it was a very hard time about this issue in past hearings. i want to make clear that they have begun to engage in what i would characterize as a constructive manner. i acknowledge that and express my hope that the committee could benefit from their expertise during a future hearing. i would be happy to yield to chairman barr if he would like to respond? >> i appreciate the gentleman yielding. just to clarify, this is the first of a series of hearings. we most certainly will be exten

mr. chairman. mr. palmieri, as someone who watched cuba for some time, given the change in the american policy during the obama administration, to resume a diplomatic relationship with cuba and to begin to resume other commercial and other ties with the country, is there any reason to think it would be in cuba's interests to make deliberate attacks against our embassy personnel at a time when there was an effort to resume ties with the country? >> i am loathe to speculate on cuban government intentions, however, there is a long history and pattern of cuban harassment of u.s. diplomats stationed in havana. it's entirely possible that they could have escalated that pattern of harassment and caused these incidents. in whatever case, they are responsible for the safety and security of u.s. diplomats stationed in havana under the vienna convention and they have failed to live up to that responsibility. >> thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. >> senator. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. i o

mr. chairman. i thank chairman thune and ranking member nelson for posting this meeting. this is the best attended committee meeting i have been to since i have been a member of this committee. maybe we need to have more meetings at the auto show or more hearings about an incredibly exciting topic. it is a pleasure to be here with the industry. senator thune, thank you so much for your leadership on this bill. we all saw his passion and opening comments. the fact that i enjoy working with him, because he is a no-nonsense senator. you can tell that by the fact that he asked the three big questions out of the box, no nonsense, but let's get right to the core of this. thank you, mr. chairman. senator nelson, thank you for being there every step of the way and working with all of us to make this a reality. i agree, this technology is transformative. you could call it disruptive or creative, it is all of those things. i believe it is the biggest thing to happen to the auto industry, since the first car

mr. chairman. i would simply repeat word for word the opening statement of the chairman. so in the interest of time, i won't do that. and will simplify it by saying this is enormously important. there are a lot of concerns at the pentagon, and there's really two big issue here's. one, as the chairman mentioned, we are in a time of tight resources and very great needs. and that means we have to get everything we can out of every dollar we spend. there are many, many issues that this committee has covered that make that clear. and second, if we can't explain where we spend the money in the pentagon, we are failing in that first mission. i know it's a lot of money. i know it's big bureaucracy, there's a lot going on, but we ought to be able to do an audit that tells us where we're spending the money. it's the pentagon's mission. i want to thank mr. conway for his great leadership in this issue. who knew having an accountant on the committee would be critical. actually, most people should have known tha

mr. chairman, i yield back. >> thank you, mr. banks. now i yield five minutes to the gentleman from california, mr. takano. >> thank you, chairman arrington. i want to express my gratitude for this hearing. i'm impressed that you're focusing on an area of consumer protection and that you've made this distinction between an absolute free marketplace and a government marketplace, and that the government marketplace is defined by money that's backed by the taxpayers or subsidized by the taxpayers and therefore the question of the veteran being able to make a decision all by himself is a bit modified here because that veteran is not making a decision that only solely affects hisser her assets and it's only the assets of the taxpayer that are at stake. so we have a duty to make sure that the program is set up properly and that there isn't, and i'm forgetting the term whether there is a moral liability and there is a lack of -- a moral hazard. there is a moral hazard here, and the risk has been reduced greatly on the person benefiting from th