mr. chesebro as possible. so, again, in terms of what the jury will hear, all of that will probably be at least attempted to be well-scripted by the parties outside of the jury's presence before they go forward. >> joyce vance, could that be part of defendant chesebro's strategy at the moment thinking that the only way or the best way for me to try to win is to be alone in that courtroom because i don't want the -- to be affected in a negative way by the other defendants, and i want the sympathy of the jury being there alone and let that jury wonder where all the other people who were part of this conspiracy. >> yeah, i think that's exactly right, lawrence. it could easily be his strategy, and it's not a bad strategy for that single defendant to point his finger at the empty chairs and say it was these other people. i wasn't the president of the united states. i had no stake in the outcome of this election, i was simply giving legal advice. that might have worked for chesebro until we learned a couple of weeks

mr. chesebro over e-mail. of those instances, someone like me can reverse engineer from the evidence available through the january 6th investigation that the house conducted who those people are. for example, in the indictment there's a reference to an e-mail between mr. chesebro and other people that is quoted in the indictment. looking at the january 6th committee's discovery, i can tell you, that unindicted coconspirator number 4 is robert sinners, director of the election day operations for the trump campaign in georgia. he's now the communications director for brad raffensperger, who as you know, is also a prominent witness here. i think mr. chesebro, with some home work, could unpack who many of these people are. on the other hand, if he's going to trial on october 23rd, it's not totally unreasonable for him to ask who some of the rest of them are. >> i have also had a chance to look at this new filing, the state of georgia versus donald john trump, and this is the argument that the lawyer for the former

mr. chesebro is being investigated by various bar committees for possible disbarment. that's why i imagine it's likely that he will be indicted, probably by fani willis because georgia was gonna be one of the victims of the scheme that really he, even more than john eastman, engineered. that's why he may well be separately indicted by jack smith, not necessarily the superseding indictment but a separate indictment of one or more of the coconspirators. good example of what lawyers shouldn't ever do>> what we seee now that we ha the point you've ma t these story of the we had all been con on eastman, the attention, but starts with che what did it feel like for you when you finally saw this memo in which he surgically removes the last few words of a sentence you wrote there is about the state of florida and only about the state of florida. he surgically removes those words and applies them, in effect, by implication, to all 50 states. this obviously is not harvard law school practice. you'd be in big trouble doing that kind of thing on an exam or a paper. but how did you

mr. chesebro as possible. so again, in terms of what the jury will hear, all of that will probably be, at least attempted to be well scripted by the parties outside of the jury's presence before they go forward. >> joyce vance, could that be part of defendant chesebro's strategy at the moment? thinking that the only way or the best way for me to try to win is to be alone in that courtroom, because i don't want to be affected in a negative way by the other defendants. and i want the sympathy of the jury being there alone and what that jury will wonder where are all the other people who were part of this conspiracy? >> yeah, i think that's exactly right, lawrence. it could easily be his strategy, and it's not a bad strategy for that single defendant to point his finger at the empty chairs and say, it was these other people. i wasn't the president of the united states. i had no stake in the outcome of this election. i was simply giving legal advice. that might have worked for chesebro entail we learned a couple o

mr. chesebro, they opted to take advantage of the speedy trial right in georgia.ou have to file a motion, close to the time of indictment. it allows and requires the trial to be held, to begin in october of this year. we see that in the way it's set out. what it means for the trump team, they're likely to get a preview of the state's case here. the judge is not likely going to infringe upon his constitutional right to have an effective defense and prepared attorney to move forward quickly because two of the co-defendants have opted to take advantage of a state statue that pushes them on a rocket docket. >> i want to be clear on what you just said. just because those two -- say they are able to go quickly. it doesn't mean, okay, two of you have decided for everyone, all of you go on this date or none of you go? >> that's right. the idea of judicial efficiency will not overrule to have lawyers to prepare a case. so, trump and the rest of the people that do not want to move forward quickly, did not opt to take advantage of the georgia speedy trial act. we need plenty

i because mr chesebro's rights under georgia voll. . .- because mr chesebro's rights under georgia voll am 'ust going to jumping quickly h going to jumping quickly because going tojumping quickly because we are seeing the former president come to speak. if you challenge an election you should be able to challenge an election. i thought the election was a rigged election, a election. i should have my right to do that. we have seen people over the years do the same thing whether it is hillary clinton or stacey abram or many others. when you have the great freedom to challenge you can have very dishonest elections. what has taken place here is a travesty ofjustice. we did nothing wrong. i did nothing wrong. and everybody knows that. i have never had such support and that goes with the other ones too. they are doing election interference. there has never been anything like it in our country before. this is their way of campaigning. this is one instance but you have three other instances. it is election interference so i want to thank you for being here. we have done nothing wrong at all and

mr. chesebro cited what he described as mr. trump's legal views, along with writing as by several liberals as potential fodder for a messaging strategy. it would be the height of hypocrisy for democrats to resist january 6th as the real deadline or to suggest that trump and pence would be doing anything to -- he wrote, joining us now is professor laurence tribe, teaching constitutional at harvard law school for five decades. mr., triborane the middle of tonight's breaking news story. i know you've had time to read it. what is your reaction to what you have discovered about yourself in this memo that the times has reported on? >> i have to say, i did not recognize myself. i haven't often been fodder for anything. what kenneth chesebro did was take stuff that i had said in the year 2000 about florida, and florida law did not set a deadline just before midnight on december 12th. it allowed counting all the way up until january 6th. the date of the joint session, and in fact, maybe even beyond. that was about florida law. remember,

mr. chesebro asking for a speedy trial. normally with a multi-defendant case like that, that gets tagged to everybody. the judge at this point has said that at this time, it only relates to mr. chesebro. so the question is whether the d.a. is going to move to have the entire case put on in october or, in some way, this is going to be put over beyond even despite the invocation of the speedy trial act. but under georgia, it's pretty strict that if they don't go at a certain time after he puts in his notice of speedy trial, it's an automatic acquittal. and the problem here is that the d.a. cannot be forced to try this case twice. >> yeah. just briefly, you're explaining the strategy by some defendants is not necessarily that they really want the fastest trial possible. >> no, of course not. >> but they know there's a sanction there that would be normally what we could call a loophole. they're afforded that under the law, so it's not a bad loophole in the eyes of the way the georgia law is written. >> it's a loophole in the se

mr. chesebro wants a speedy trial, and you have a right under georgia trial to have a trial before the nextjudicial term. and if this holds, we will see a trial, and as you are trying the trial against mr. chesebro, you will have to put up all of the evidence, and you know who is sitting in the gallery watching that every move? the lawyers and the defendants of the other 18 people in this case, and taking notes and building the strategy and what is working for the prosecutors and the holes to exploit, and if this trial is going on, and a, we will see a trial, and b, it is enormous tactical advantage. >> and we will be seeing a trial, and cameras in the courtroom gaeogeorgia, and who called whose bluff? >> kenneth chesebro said, you want to call 19 of us on racketeer, prove it by halloween. and we used to say, what if every defendant wanted a speedy trial, and fani willis said, fine, you want a speedy trial, fine, october 23rd, and she is ready to go, too. >> and so, michael zelden, do donald trump's interests align here with kenneth chese bxro? >> well, they align legally in a sense that if

mr. chesebro. that's step one. step two, there are 5 of the 19 defendants who have requested they be move d to federal court. that includes mark meadows, the white house chief of staff, jeffrey clark, and three georgia officials who were fake electors after the 2020 election. now all of them say that what they were doing was acting on behalf of the federal government. in the case of the fake electors, they were acting at trump's direction when they signed the form saying they were the electors of the state of georgia. we're really going to get the first sense of this on monday, because that's what measuring med does has a hearing in court where he's going to try to get his case separated and moved to federal court. and what's interesting about this hearing, it's going to give us some actual evidence. fani willis subpoenaed several witnesses who could testify at this hearing, including the georgia secretary of state. he was the one who was on trump's call when trump asked him to find the votes he needed to win the s

mr. chesebro as filed a demand for a speedy trial. under georgia statute, if he isn't -- the trial hasn't begun before the end of the term of court, which here, i think, is november the 6th, he would be entitled to an acquittal. regardless of what happens, because mr. chesebro has made this demand, it looks like he is going to have to have a trial within the next two months. >> glenn, it sounds like distributor any willis wants to get some organization here on the question of how many people are going to be in the speedy trial? there's another defendant now asking for a speedy trial. district attorney willis is saying, as of now, i want all of the defendants in the speedy trial. she is asking the judge to think about two things at once, a speedy trial and severance, and, therefore, if you are going to sever, create a deadline for motions to sever so we can get donald trump's motion to sever. everyone else's motion to sever in the court, considered at the same time. >> yeah, and i agree that the judge has not really taken up the questi

mr. chesebro told mr. eastman, as they discussed filing illegal action, that in terms of the highest court, the quote, odds of action before january 6th will become more favorable if the justices start to fear that there will be wild chaos on january 6th unless they rule by then, either way, and quote. that is a story. joining us now, the former united states attorney and professor at the university of alabama law school. jim kirschner is a former federal prosecutor and the host of the justice matters podcast. they are both msnbc legal analysts. good evening to both of you. joyce, tell me about this, we have wondered for a long time as these cases of the people who were in front of the capitol, and inside the capitol on january 6th move forward, what the connections are and have been and were with those people on the other side of pennsylvania avenue. those people who were scheming to overturn this election. now, this guy, kenneth chesebro, yet another name that a whole lot of people did not know a couple

mr. chesebro entered the capitol or acted violently on january 6th, this could greatly complicate his legals evidence could be decided by prosecutors as further proof that chesebro was not operating as a bona fide legal advisor, but rather was an activist aligned in the cause to overturn the 2020 election. joining me now is christie greenberg, a former federal prosecutor for the southern district of new york, where she served as the deputy chief of the criminal division. thank you for being with me on this friday night. i wonder if you agree with ryan goodman's assessment that the presence of chesebro, on the january 6th insurrection, though not acting violently, could be a real problem for the defense he is trying to mount in a federal indictment? >> absolutely, it could. his lawyers are going to portray him as a lawyer sitting in his office, turning out memos, sending out legal theories, and just offering potential options to a client. but his presence at the capitol really shatters that image. this is no longer a theory, it is action. he's not this passionate lawyer, he has got the red t

mr. chesebro's attorneys have done. they are getting ready for trial.they are going to be ready for trial. and whether that will be just mr. chesebro, whether it will be the whole thing, some others with him, that will be determined by the judge. but you don't bring any case without being ready for trial. you certainly don't bring this case. and fani willis doesn't bring cases like this without being ready for trial when they indict it. >> with fewer than four hours, john, from the deadline for everybody to turn themselves in there are two people outstanding. one spent the night inside the jail and that's harrison floyd, who is the leader of black voices for trump. why is he still there? >> he may be spending more than the night. he has got two problems. a little one and a big one. the small problem is apparently he didn't go to the courthouse with his attorneys ahead of time to arrange bond and then go to the jail simply to be processed. he showed up as someone that the district attorney had a warrant for in this case, who had not arranged bond. once y

mr. chesebro stands by that demand.harlie, "the new york times" is reporting another major racketeering trial being prosecuted by her in atlanta, a rapper and his associates, they were indicted more than a year ago and a jury is yet to be seated. the jury selection process started seven months ago. what does that tell you about potential complications in the trump case? >> jury selection, that process is controlled by the judge. the judge has a lot of discretion as to whether question jurors individually or in groups. that jury selection is taking some time. i will give another example. the cheating trial, a rico case that fani led nine years ago, that started with 4 defendants. by the time it went to trial, there were 13. jury selection there took about five or six weeks. people are saying, it's going to be months. that's not necessarily the case. i would say that's on the long end. if it starts october 23rd, that is when jury selection starts, at the beginning of the trial. i wouldn't expect it to last months. i think

mr. chesebro. i know that you as part of the january six committee deposed him or interviewed him as part of that committee and you were present for that. he seems to be well every but he's focused on mr. eastman, he seems to be quite a strong participant in the fake elector scheme writing three different memos. i guess i want to start with since you are somebody who sat there and listened to him, what were your impressions for the substance of his testimony his, demeanor, what did you make of him? >> well, i think he's a trooper lever. he wrote actually four memos, three that the committee had and one that we didn't outlining really the plot to overturn the election. you know, i don't know the man but he certainly was focused on overturning the election and i think my believe is he will be held criminally to account for that. >> so one of the things that you mention was this idea that the roads separate memos but the committee only had three of them. what is the reason for that? is it because it w

mr. chesebro and his attorneys know about the case is in the indictment. and the whole case is not in that indictment. it's very easy for his attorneys to say let's do it because if mr. chesebro is convicted, the attorneys don't go to jail. >> why would they say that if they haven't gotten discovery, why would they say, yeah, sure. >> i don't think it's smart. i don't want to tell other lawyers what to do. it's one thing if you have a client languishing in jail. he's out. all 19 of them are out. you know, there's a reason why defense attorneys delay. witnesses suddenly change their mind, their memories t evidence doesn't get better. you want to delay. you hope something, you know, catastrophic will happen, oh, the trial doesn't go. to say let's do it right away, she was right. she should say, all right, you want it, let's go for it, and i agree it's not going to happen because the other 17 say he may want to go to trial. we don't want to go to trial. >> is it possible, even if it's not october 23rd. say it's december, that maybe he gets a faster trial than

mr. chesebro, that he intends to avail himself of that righ. mr. remains confident, blah, blah, blah, but at a process level they're sprintering. >> because it represents the individual self-did of each defendant and the interest of that defendant is different than the interest of donald trump and not only on the procedural calendar, but in substance, as well. some of these people were election workers, party officials and so forth, and if their central defense is i believed in this counsel i received. fani willis will say that's not true,io knew better and if you'll give me probation or keep me out of jail to say yes, it came down from giuliani, trump and others and out of the 19, some people will take that deal. >> who do you think is first? >> i think it's going to be someone we don't know. i've made my opinion on mark meadows. i think he's working with jack smith and can he alleviate that? maybe, maybe not. and lower down, people who aren't a household name. >> it's like a scene from the movie when they get home from fingerprinted, oh, honey, t

mr. chesebro has and so i think what is likely to happen is his trial will be far into the future and jack smith's trial of former president trump will probably go on much sooner. >> carol, thank you. we are looking at the motorcade of former president trump as it exits the jail complex right now. i understand we've got some word about whether a mugshot was taken. >> we have just been told by one of the former president's aides who is with president trump that in fact it is their understanding that a mugshot was taken. these aides have not seen it yet. they have been told that there was a mugshot. and so we are waiting to get more information about that. that was one of the big questions looming over these proceedings. would there in fact be a mugshot. >> reporter: there was a lag in some of the earlier defendants who came in. this we would expect to see before the night is over. >> we've certainly requested it along with every other media organization as you can imagine. we wondered whether the sheriff would do this as he had said he was going to treat him like everybody else. as kristen

mr. kenneth chesebro. and his attorney says mr. chesebro will look forward to whatever date the court sates. this is of interest to donald trump because he brought on a new lead attorney, steven sadow, replacing drew finling who had been working on the case for the last year. i want you to get a little bit of a look outside the jail hours before donald trump is expected to arrive here. take a listen. >> it's just a beautiful thing to have someone who's just a regular guy come out and with his flaws say sarcastic things are nothing but the truth. >> he's never lied. >> reporter: i want to ask you guys, by a show of handles, who thinks the 2020 election was stolen. >> pastor, get over here. here's our pastor right here. >> reporter: so everybody here thinks the 2020 election -- >> absolutely. it was. >> reporter: chris, we expect donald trump to arrive here later on this evening for his official booking process, those are supporters who are on the front side of the jail. there are dozens of his backers who have been here over the cour

mr. chesebro has done recently. >> you wonder why. clearly, there is a lot of counsel now getting involved. what is the strategy in all of the moves? >> look. each defendant, and particularly the ones that are lower down the chain of culpability prefer to be severed, and it is easier for kenneth chesebro to be sitting down from trump and the other conspirator conspirators, and so i see why they want to peel off, and have them preview the evidence. i think that chesebro believes that if he is going first, the government will not be showing all of the cards in the trial, because of the looming and much more significant trial of the former president and other, and tactically, i understand why a defendant or two would want to go fast particularly if it is going to result in a severance which is favorable for them. >> i wanted to ask you about mark meadows, and we have talked about him in the past, and what you did and didn't get from mark meadows in your investigation for the january 6th congressional meeting, and he is trying to get a he

mr. chesebro says, the bold and unconventional plan is actually an illegal plan -- >> controversial, it sayst's beyond controversial. it's blatantly unconstitutional. that's the word he should have used. why? because the constitution does not provide for when electors are not actually representing a winner in a state. the constitutional does not provide for the vice president to do the things he's called to do on january 6th, presiding over the meeting of congress. this is the memo where he jump into the illegality that the prosecution charges constitutes these three conspiracies. >> the memo represents, i'm not necessarily advising this course of action of the he's covering himself with that language. is some of these caveats enough to do that? >> if this was the only memo, it probably would not have been enough to constitute a basis for criminal prosecution, but we know it's not the only memo. these are allegations from the special counsel, but we also saw them from the january 6th committee. we have seen the step-by-step progression here to this plot that is a blatant violation of the con

mr. chesebro was just putting forth some legal theories as lawyers do -- is that in and of itself a solid in a court of law as to how the they electors plot came to be? does not hold as much water as we are led to believe it does? >> i don't think so, if you're looking at the substance of the memos in seeing how the berries evolved from one where he mentioned okay, this is just the wisconsin memo that is reference in the general six indictment, this is just to preserve the legal options in the event any of the lawsuits are successful. that, okay, it seems like a legal theory one could put forward in a memo. but then in the subsequent memos it evolves and it starts to talk about more action not just preserving the options but how are we going to implement this fake elector scheme. there is also an email that he sends in december of 2022 to john eastman where he talks about the supreme court justices may be more inclined to act if they have reason to fear that they will be chaos on january six, maybe they will do something before hand, all of that starts to take something again not theory,

mr. chesebro or any of the defendants must be tried by the end of september. issue must be joined by the end of october, excuse me. so any d.a. upon getting a speedy trial demand, their responsibility, their inclination is to immediately put it on a reasonable calender that allows for discovery and everything else. so while 60 days or less than 60 days may seem unreasonable, that is what's required by georgia law, and a prosecutor is not going to risk losing their case by failing to honor what's in the statute. >> let me ask you one more legal question about today's developments, and then i've got to bring carol and frank in i think on on a normal day would be a blaring headline or mug shot for the former chief of staff. but i need to ask you about what is shaping up on monday. that will be mark meadows opportunity to make an argument that this case belongs in federal court. d.a. fani willis has called brad raffensperger and his former top investigater for the 2020 fraud claims as witnesses. what are we -- what should we be watching for in that proceeding? and

mr. chesebro would like the court to release the names of 30 coconspirators in the indictment. there are 30 of them not named. fani willis told the court she wants all 19 defendants in this case filed together, no exceptions. chesebro and powell have all invoked georgia's speedy trial act to try to get their cases to court before all the other defendants in the case. another codefendant, trump lawyer, john eastman, says he intends to do the same. we don't know who the courts will side with on that particular question, but if those defendants think they're going to have an easier time on their own, they'll have to rethink their strategy. john eastman gave an interview to fox news where he issued this challenge. >> on the rico side of the fulton county case, that would require findings of bad faith. that would have to be you all basically agreeing implicitly, explicitly you all knew it was phony, and to that you say. >> well, they've got all the evidence, they've got all my e-mails. my phone was seized over a year ago so they've got all that stuff as well, and i challenge them to

mr. chesebro saying, hey, i want my trial, i want it now, and the prosecutor saying, fine, we'll have it now, the judge agreeing and setting the schedule. it may not be practical. there could be inherent delays, motion practice, rights for the attorney going on trial who may assert and it may take time to play out. so while it's scheduled, it may not go on october 23rd at this time. >> chesebro was part of a multi-state plot. if his trial goes on october 23rd and wraps up before trump even goes to trial, do you see the outcome of that impacting trump's trial? >> so i think it impacts it in the following way. i think we would get a preview as the trial went forward as to the nature of the evidence. remember when you have a rico case, prosecutors will be talking about the nature of the enterprise. what specifically does that do? this is a conspiracy. they were acting in coordination. therefore, it will give you the overall sense what the defendants as a whole were doing. to that extent it has an impact. of course, if there's a conviction and there's a conviction on all counts, they'll ask

mr. chesebro is asked to provide -- he applied his legal acumen to these complex legal issues.based on that exceeding existing legal president, he summarized his finding writings. whether the campaign relied on that -- we hope the full indeed special counsel floyd recognize these issues before deciding who, if anyone, to charge. what do you make of that? >> well, i'm not shocked by that approach. john eastman has made similar arguments in his state bar proceeding, hey i'm just giving legal advice. but when you look at this, as lisa mentioned, when you look at these documents together in a sequence of events, it's very clear that what went from back in november, and idea that we should have contingent electors, backing up for the viewers a little bit, the idea was december 14th electors need to meet. and the hard and fast deadline under the. while law and hey, we've got all these court challenges, and what if we win one of those after december 14th? we need to have been protected. that sort of notion in this november memo, but then by the december six memo that you're talking ab

mr. chesebro has done. >> reporter: go ahead. >> i was going to conclude by saying this is an enormously complicated case. i can only imagine what the discovery is going to look like. i think it's going to take time to work through all that. >> reporter: right now, you have no plans to ask for a speedy trial for john eastman? >> that's correct. >> reporter: will your client try to move this case from state court to a federal court, like we have seen others attempt to do? >> he may not have a choice from what i understand. there's a viable argument that if a federal officer -- a federal officer that worked for the federal government gets his case successfully removed, which could happen, there's a reasonable argument that the rest of the defendants may automatically be removed, whether federal officers or not. that may be what ends up happening. if that doesn't happen, we might take a serious look at that. we haven't made a decision one way or the other. >> reporter: if one moves, maybe all could. if not, you still may potentially ask for that as well. i guess ply qmy question is, wi woul

mr. chesebro, all of them are going to argue in this case that what they were doing is providing legal advice. people can disagree with it. people can think that it's wrong, but it's not criminal behavior. as it comes to the former president and those who relied on that advice, they're going to flip that argument to their benefit and say, well, i was relying on this legal advice -- >> the question is where you draw the line. >> -- even if it turned out to be wrong. >> whether it's reasonable to think that legal advice was actually something that was legit or whether it was just -- >> what they're going to argue is this potentially is the criminalization of legal practice. so i think lawyers and the bars are going to be looking at this case to understand where these prosecutions end up on where that line is. >> michael moore, let me bring you back in here, and let's look at the big defendant, the former president, and just remind our viewers what he agreed to in his bond deal yesterday. $200,000, no direct communication with co-defendants, no direct communication with witnesses, bars direct or

mr. chesebro, they opted to take advantage of the speedy trial act in georgia.statute that gives them the pacific right to have that case move quickly. it has to be close to the trial of indictment. and in this case, it allows and requires the trial to be held at least to begin an october of this year. so we see that in the way it's set out. what it means, basically, for the trump team is that they are likely to get a preview of the states case. because the judge is very likely not going to infringe upon his constitutional right to have an effective defense and ineffective trial saying that a prepared attorney to move forward quickly. simply because two of these codefendants have opted to take advantage of a state statute that pushes them, in a sense, on a rocket docket. so that is just not -- >> i don't want to cut you off, but i want to be clear. on the thing you just said, just because those to say that they are able to go quickly, it doesn't mean that two of you have now decided for everyone, you there all of you go on this date, or none of you go. >> that's

mr. chesebro would be acquitted as a matter of law. >> explain that more.is -- >> if she can't get this by october, by the 23rd of october or by the 1st of november, if she can't start trial by then, he automatically gets a pass. >> that is so interesting. >> statutory. >> it is statutory. so it is meant to mirror kind of the protections under the constitution. so whether she -- >> for a defendant. >> right. whether she was ready or not, they're going to have to go. and so that's why it is kind of an interesting move by her attorneys, specifically her attorney scott grubman. >> is this the -- is this the preview then, mario, to what the bigger trial will look like? chesebro is a different defendant, but he's part of the alleged fraud. part of the alleged conspiracy. >> yeah. and for at least for trump at least, trump would love to -- his legal strategy has been to delay, delay, delay, right? that gives him time, the closer we get to the presidential election, that kind of gives him even more juice if you will to say that this is election interference, to pu

mr. chesebro and the other unindicted co-conspirators likely to be named and charged in this case.s will be powerful evidence against them and i think it will be up to the special counsel to find the facts and evidence that links the advice in this memo to former president trump. >> just one last question, tom. we had that calear, sara murray and kate put up the calendar going forward and trump's lawyers are saying they can't do a hearing right now because they're so busy. how persuasive is that to a judge saying i can't possibly go to trial because i'm so busy going to trial? >> well, look, i think that we've seen judge chutkan's first response to this as saying that's no excuse. if i want you here in my courtroom on friday you will be here. i think it's one thing, though, for the judge to order lawyers to appear at the hearing and juggle multiple balls at once, i think it's another thing if she's demanding the presence of former president trump in proceedings. i think you can have multiple proceedings moving forward at the same time if it involves lawyers filing briefs and appear

mr. chesebro released a statement to cnn saying they were going to allow this to i plea out in court. ebro is one of the people expect today surrender in georgia by the end of next week. >> all right. shimon prokupecz, our k-file team with the reporting, thank you. bringing in our panel for more on this. elisa and former white house trump communications director, former executive director of the political party. what is your reaction when you see yet another thread that seems to connect to absolutely everything the last three months. administration? >> only the best people around donald trump. i never dealt with kenneth chesebro. he was an attorney who came in when the former president stopped listen to his white house counsel. as we saw in the indictment, there will be violence in the streets if you do this. i am old enough to remember ten ye years ago in the gop, if you were paling around with alex jones, you would have been chased out. he was very much involved in this effort we know and had a close line to the white house. >> do you think this has legal implications for the preside

mr. chesebro's case, but all of those decisions will be up to the judge.nd again, this is a prosecutor that is pursuing a rico charge. i believe it would be her preference to try even together because all of of the acts and allegations are interrelated under that first count of the indictment. >> so we also learned today, lisa, that donald trump changed lawyers just hours before surrendering. what, if anything, does that tell you? what might be going on here? >> i really don't know what's going on, chris, and a lot of us are scratching our heads. he's been with drew finling for a long time in trump world relative to the times he spent with other criminal defense attorneys. his new criminal defense lawyer steve sadow is largely understood to be one of the premier criminal defense lawyers in georgia. he has achieved remarkable results for a number of his clients in the past could including lots of personalities in the rap and entertainment world. what he hasn't apparently done, though, is represent a politician much less anyone like donald trump. and whether

mr. chesebro. so this is a very interesting play. i don't think that we will see a trial begin in october, but nonetheless, this is obviously something that we'll all be watching. >> but charles, is it easier to be trying these candidates -- candidates -- defendants i should say, one at a time, given, you know, if you have all of them before a jury, you're dealing with all of their lawyers, all the cross examinations, all the motions that may come from each individual client -- lawyer's client along the way, which as we discussed previously only, you know, makes it more likely that this trial process gets dragged out. >> you're absolutely right. i think that typically what you would see in a case of this nature is that the defendants would be grouped and tried in groups. not necessarily 19 at a time, but usually groups between four and six. those are going to be based on what they are culpable of and what they're responsible for doing in terms of how you make the decision of whom to pair with whom. donald trump is someone you would h

mr. chesebro has petitioned for a speedy trial that it's perfectly legitimate to have a trial this year toe it happen in the fall and that the courts are fully equipped to do that and obviously the defendants are going to be able to learn from each other's experiences, but they're up against a mountain of evidence that they were involved in this complex conspiracy to accomplish a single criminal objective which is to overthrow our actual presidential election and substitute a counterfeit process for it. >> 2024 presidential candidate asa hutchinson who will join me in a bit, he says that donald trump might be disqualified from holding office based on the 14th amendment which says that u.s. officials who engage in insurrection or rebellion or aid and comfort them cannot hold office again. you were not only an impeachment manager in the january 6th impeachment of donald trump. you were a constitutional scholar. so do you agree with asa hutchinson on this? >> well, absolutely, wooe been saying all along that the 14th amendment presents a clear and unequivocal statement that anyone who has swo

mr. chesebro and sidney powell have done, then, yes, you have the right to be tried under georgia law inbut the prosecutor cannot force people who are unwilling to exercise that right to be tried that quickly. i think what fani willis is doing here is, a, she's making a statement, and that's perfectly appropriate to say we're ready on everybody, and, b, she's trying to get clarity from the judge, how many trials will there be and when will they be. >> jennifer, what do you think the strategy is here by fani willis? >> i do agree. there's no way 19 people can be tried together logistically, even if they were already, which of course, as elie, suggested, they will not agree to be, nor should they. i think it's foolish for them to want to try a trial in two months. so i think fani willis just wants to get a date on the calendar for the 17 others. because even 17 is just not going to happen logistically. >> so, this federal judge is deciding -- the federal judge, rather, who is deciding to move mark meadows' case to federal court is now requesting additional briefs about georgia's rico law,

mr. chesebro.he first week of november based on that demand. >> that would be extraordinary. and, john, you have this federal judge rejecting the emergency motion by mark meadows, trump's former white house chief of staff, to block district attorney fani willis from arresting him if he fails to surrender before the friday deadline. but his broader effort to move this case to federal court, that's going to continue. what do you make of his role in all of this? >> it's a decisive heisman from the judge in his attempt to sort of delay justice. delay is often a denial, a classic trump tactic. but it's being rejected in the case of meadows and clark. not definitively because their contestation can continue. but, as the judge and others have pointed out, they weren't acting in a federal capacity. they were meddling in a political capacity, in a hyperpartisan capacity. we'll see what the courts ultimately decide. but this judge was not settle for this attempt to duck out. >> thank you so much to both of y

mr. chesebro and mr. eastman, the two architects of the january 6th strategy.d part of that was to create havoc and destruction and chaos hoping that that would put pressure on the supreme court later on when this matter ultimately if they could get away with their fake elector scheme, getting that in front of the supreme court. so this is part of the plan, and having him there on the ground as part of that chaos and watching it, that goes beyond legal advice, and i think it puts him much more, it takes the aid of the defense away from donald trump significantly, and it makes him much more of a participant on the ground than just a lawyer giving advice. >> let me turn now to the federal election interference case. trump's legal team as you heard wants to push that trial date to april of 2026. they argue that prosecutors spent two years investigating and the evidence alone is over a million pages. in a filing trump's team wrote we began downloading the government's initial production on january -- on august 13th. two days later it was still downloading. have you

mr. chesebro wants in the fall, he doesn't want to go to trial there. basically mr.d the door to this march 4th date. also, quite frankly, if they had given a reasonable date, april 2026 is not a reasonable date, maybe they would have received the june date, but she couldn't even listen to them anymore once they were sticking with the april 2026 date. this should give them enough time, the defense and mr. trump enough time. him saying, well, i'm going to be on the campaign, you know, i have to go give speeches, that is irrelevant. he is for the purposes of this case and the other three cases a criminal defendant. his personal, professional life will have to take a backseat to him being a criminal defendant, particularly in this case and getting ready for trial, and his attorneys will have to just put all of their focus, they're getting paid, i assume, and give him, mr. trump, best defense they can. and they are all capable attorneys, they should be able to do it. and as special counsel said, most of this information, these witnesses, they already know about. there wa

mr. chesebro would also like the court to release the names of 30 unindicted coconspirators in the indictment. there are 30 of them who were not named. so this motion comes as fani willis told the court that she wants all 19 defendants in this case tried together. no exceptions. chesebro and powell have all invoked georgia's speedy trial act trying to get their cases to court before all of the other defendants in the case. another codefendant trump lawyer, john eastman, says he intends to do the same. we don't know who the courts will side with on that particular question. but of those defendants think that they will have an easier time on their own, they may want to rethink their strategy. just last night, listen to this one, john eastman, also a codefendant, gave an interview to fox news where he issued this challenge. >> on the rico side of the fulton county case, that would require findings of bad faith. that would have to be you all basically agreeing, implicitly, explicitly, that you all knew that this was all phony, and that you say? >> well, they have got all the evidence. they have a

mr. chesebro, i don't care who you are, mr. meadows. you were a former congressman, the chief of staff to the president. that's real cute. you're going to come down here, walk in that jail just like any other person accused of being a criminal in my jurisdiction. you're going to get that mugshot. meadows tried real hard not to get the mugshot. everybody gets the mugshot. >> she won. she's been winning in court. she had to go to court two or three times already and prevailed on the date for chesebro, should he cleave himself off. she proposed october 23rd. the judge today, i think some time between 4:00 and 6:00, ruled in her favor. she's prevailed so far in the meadows case. he wanted to wait until his proceeding to move his case to federal court. she's already, i mean, it's a long, long process, but she's batting 1,000 in front of judges. >> we don't know, you can't tell what's going on inside a prosecution or inside any criminal investigation except for what they say in court, except for what they publicly put out there, which is the

mr. ken chesebro, part of the scheme to submit the fake pro trump electors to congress. his case is now split off from the other 18 co-defendants including the former president whose lawyers signaled they want to slow things down. >> and you have new reporting from those close to the former president. >> they're defiant. i asked about the mood inside the former president's orbit. they point to the millions of views he got for that online interview. look, some of those who are close to the former president are concerned. this is taking place in a key state that mr. trump almost certainly needs if he wants to win re-election in 2024. they're concerned about the images coming out of this, a possibility for a mug shot, fingerprints. but we know the former president will undoubtedly use those to his benefit. and, look, i was out in iowa this past week talking to republican caucus goers, those who support mr. trump and those who don't. almost all of them skeptical to some extent of these legal proceedings which underscores why his poll numbers have just gone up with each new i

mr. chesebro. i don't care who you are mr. meadows, former congressman, chief staff of president. that's really cute. you're gonna come down, here you're gonna walk in that, jail just like any other person that's accused of being criminal in my jurisdiction. you're gonna get that mugshot. meadows fabio hot to not get the mugshot -- guess, what everybody gets the mugshot. >> she's been winning in court. he's had to go to court, 2 to 3 times. early, and she's prevailed on the date or kenneth chesebro should she went off. she proposed, october 30, first, today and will dinner. faber and she's, prevailed so far in the middle. skates and he wanted to wait until his proceeding with this. case so she is already, i, mean, along long process. she is betting 1000 in front of judges. >> and you know, we don't know, you can't tell what's going on inside of a prosecution, or inside. out any criminal investigation except for what they say in court. except for what they publicly right. which is the way it should, be it's part of the process. but there was a, sensor fani willis's investigation th