mr. cummings. >> yes. >> mr. cummings votes aye. >> mr. towns. >> mr. towns votes aye. miss la moaneny votes aye. miss norton votes aye. mr. kucinich votes aye. mr. attorneyeny votes aye. mr. clay votes aye. mr. lynch. mr. clay votes aye. mr. lynch votes aye. mr. connelly votes aye. mr. quigley votes aye. mr. davis votes aye. mr. brayly votes aye. mr. welch votes aye. mr. murphy votes aye. miss spear votes aye. >> the clerk will report. >> on that vote, mr. chairman, 15 ayes, 23 nos. >> the amendment is not agreed to. the question now occurs on the amendment offered by the lady from new york. miss maloney, in which the nos prevailed by voice and recorded vote was ordered. the clerk will call the role. >> mr. issa. >> no. >> mr. burton votes no. mr. my ka votes no. mr. plats votes no. mr. turner votes no. mr. mchenry votes no. mr. jordan votes no. mr. chaffetz. mr. chaffetz votes no. mr. mack votes no. mr. wahlberg votes no. mr. langford votes no. mr. move votes no. miss beshgle votes no. mr. labrador? mr. labrador votes no. mr. me shan votes no. mr. walsh votes no. mr.

mr. cummings: do you have any more speakers? mr. issa: no, i do not. mr. cummings: mr. speaker, as the democratic leader said, there's no doubt that the constitution gives congress the right and responsibility to investigate, but the constitution also requires something else. it requires congress and the executive branch to avoid unnecessary conflict and deceit, accommodations that serve both of their interests. in this case the attorney general has testified nine times. he's provided thousands of pages of documents. he's provided 13 pages of deliberative internal document and he's willing to provide even more to meet the recent demands of chairman issa. but house republican leaders are not honoring their constitutional obligations. in fact, th are running in the wrong direction as quickly as possible. it's fundamentally wrong to vote in favor of this resolution at this time when the attorney general has been working with the house in good faith. i believe this action will undermine the standing of the house, will cement the speaker's legacy and will be recorded by hist

mr. cummings: do you have any more speakers? mr. issa: no, i do not. mr. cummings: mr. speaker, as the democratic leader said, there's no doubt that the constitution gives congress the right and responsibility to investigate, but the constitution also requires something else. it requires congress and the executive branch to avoid unnecessary conflict and deceit, accommodations that serve both of their interests. in this case the attorney general has testified nine times. he's provided thousands of pages of documents. he's provided 13 pages of deliberative internal document and he's willing to provide even more to meet the recent demands of chairman issa. but house republican leaders are not honoring their constitutional obligations. in fact, they are running in the wrong direction as quickly as possible. it's fundamentally wrong to vote in favor of this resolution at this time when the attorney general has been working with the house in good faith. i believe this action will undermine the standing of the house, will cement the speaker's legacy and will be recorded by hi

mr. cummings: do you have any more speakers? mr. issa: no, i do not. mr. cummings: mr. speaker, as the democratic leader said, there's no doubt that the constitution gives congress the right and responsibility to investigate, but the constitution also requires something else. it requires congress and the executive branch to avoid unnecessary colict and deceit, accommodations that serve both of their interests. in this case the attorney general has testified ne times. he's provided thousands of pages of documents. he's provided 13 pages of deliberative internal document and he's willing to provide even more to meet the recent demands of chairman issa. but house republican leaders are not honoring their constitutional obligations. in fact, they are running in the wrong direction as quickly as possible. it's fundamentally wrong to vote in favor of this resolution at this time when the attorney general has been working with the house in good faith. i believe this action will undermine the standing of the house, will cement the speaker's legacy and will be recorded by histor

mr. cummings, has a different understanding of it than -- >> would the gentleman yield very quickly? >> i have today gotten the -- from the attorney general's office noted that all he's referring to is trying to have a good faith effort to resolve the subpoena and contempt issue only. i yield back. >> i would respect the chairman for standing up for committee prerogatives. second, i agree with the chairman that we do owe it to the terry family to get to the bottom of this, but the third point, this is the challenge that we always have in congress. everything that we do when it ends up on a partisan vote leaves the american public with the view that essentially it's a political deal going down in washington once again and the hope i would have is that the member of the committee who strongly believes in oversight and legitimate access that congress should have to all of the information needs in order to make a determination about accountability and how it happened is that we lay that foundation in this committee that would justify in the minds of most of us including on both sides of

mr. cummings: yes. mr. speaker, the -- you know, it's interesting here today what we just did with regard to the criminal contempt, i do believe that it is very unfortunate and let me tell you why. we have an attorney general who is indeed an honorable man. we who practice law look up to the attorney general and any u.s. attorney. they are folks like us who are well educated and who love their country and eric holder jr. is no exception. over and over again he has tried to cooperate with this committee and i'm sure that both sides -- his side and our side have become a little frustrated at times. but as he said in a meeting a few weeks ago -- about a couple weeks ago, he said that he's willing to give the documents. he's asking at some point his attorneys have an opportunity to get back to work. now, leader pelosi said something a moment ago that we should not lose sight of, mr. speaker, when she spoke about the constitution and that it requires congress and the executive branch to avoid unnecessary conflic

mr. cummings. >> no. >> mr. cummings votes know. mr. towns. >> no. >> mr.ns votes know. >> 23 ayes, 17 nos. >> the ayes have it. and a contempt report is ordered reported to the house. >> cenk: shocking. it turns out in committee controlled by republicans, the ayes have it: it's not a done deal. it goes to the full house and we'll see if they take that to the next level. that very rarely happens but you very rarely have a congress filled with republicans like this. let's go to joe williams, correspondent for politico. it's great to have you on. it's been awhile. >> yeah, i appreciate it. thanks a lot for the invite. >> cenk: absolutely. let's start with the white house first. they did the executive privilege in the morning. does that mean that they knew the contempt was coming and they didn't have a deal and they wanted to get out ahead of it. >> it's obviously between holders, holders people and isa and isa's people they weren't going to cut a deal. every was looking for a way out except isa. and it seemed as though this was the preordained or pre-destined

mr. cummings got up to go and then i got up. ultimately the meeting had resolved everything that we could go back and forth probably 20 minute earlier we gave opportunity for mr. cole, for the attorney general hold r holder, for senator leahy and mr. cummings to each state their positions and that took about five minutes apiece. >> greta: did you communicate to him right then and there look i'm going forward tomorr w tomorrow? did you tell him that? >> i did. i told him that he gave us nothing that would cause us not to go forward. but that we would hold the doors open for actual discove y discovery. >> and he said what when you told him that? >> well, he started through the same line that he used in public statements that you have seen before judicialary unprecedented access, nobody can give you the deliberative process, we are willing to do it but it is unprecedented. and again, we are sorry to have to ask for this information but i he think the american people by now if they have been foll w following fast and furious know th

mr. cummings got up to go and then i got up. ultimately the meeting had resolved everything that we could go back and forth probably 20 minute earlier we gave opportunity for mr. cole, for the attorney general hold r holder, for senator leahy and mr. cummings to each state their positions and that took about five minutes apiece. >> greta: did you communicate to him right then and there look i'm going forward tomorr w tomorrow? did you tell him that? >> i did. i told him that he gave us nothing that would cause us not to go forward. but that we would hold the doors open for actual discove y discovery. >> and he said what when you told him that? >> well, he started through the same line that he used in public statements that you have seen before judicialary unprecedented access, nobody can give you the deliberative process, we are willing to do it but it is unprecedented. and again, we are sorry to have to ask for this information but i he think the american people by now if they have been foll w following fast and furious know th

mr. cummings each to state their positions. and that took about 5 minutes apiece. >> did he -- did the attorney general -- did you communicate to him right then and there, look, i'm going forward tomorrow. did you tell him that? >> i did. i told him he gave us nothing that would cause us not to go forward, but we would hold the doors open for actual discovery. >> he said what when you told him that? >> well, he started through the same line that he used in public statements that you have seen, in report to judiciary, unprecedented access, nobody can give you the deliberative process. we are willing to do it but it's unprecedented. and again, we are sorry to have to ask for this information, but i think the american people by now, if they have been following fast & furious know that we don't have answers relative to who was responsible for brian terry and it went up the chain. we certainly don't have any information about how a document that was false remained out there for 10 months. >> what was his demeanor when you told him n

mr. cummings says it very well. perhaps these people were liyig to their losses. but we are not going to bring them in unless we have the ki d kinds of questions we need to ask. i want every one of those people here. i expected to have a panel. part of what you do is you get testimony. >> chris: you so far refused to have kenneth nelson. >> we have not refused. >> chris: has he testified before the committee? >> he testified for two days. >> chris: in a public hearing? >> no, in a private gathering with republicans and democrats under oath. our lawyers were asking those questions. from that we asked for documents. our in te intention is to havem back on a panel along with dennis burke and others. >> chris: i hate to interrupt but you we have limited time. congressman cummings does that satisfy you? >> no, i have asked the chairman to bring the atf director nelson before us. he has refused to. we asked for witnesses to come before the public hearing. he has refused to do that. all i'm saying is i -- the chairman in me has a willing partner if we are really going to

mr. cummings on this subject. i just know that my case is different from years ago. >> do you see any problem -- >> yes. >> given the fact that the interest rate increase will only apply to new loans. it won't apply to -- >> suppose you're a student and you're taking out a loan and you sign up for 6.8%, you signed up. now some time down the road you are going to perhaps renegotiate the loan that that's an affirmative action that you have to know how to do. there are costs involved in it that will probably be passed on to the borrower. people have to make decisions based on -- this may or may not be the interest that i pay and you don't een knven know if it be retroactive so why would we do that except -- except humor -- humor, and the intrance sequence of the house of representatives, why should students have to face that uncertainty if we agree that the interest rate should be 3.4% and not 6.8%. so it hurts these student. i can give you chapter and verse on this and we have the presentation as recently as this mo

mr. cummings issued a 95-page staff report that was based on a very thorough review of the evidence. that report, and that report was fast and furious and it was sent in a series of operations in five years that was run by the atf field office in phoenix. so this was not something that is new. there's a lot of questions about how much high officials at the doj knew about it, but it had been going on before this for at least five years, and the committee has obtained documents showing that in 2007, and mr. chairman, and i appreciate the urgency that this committee has, under your leadership to try to get to access to all of the information that it feels it needs, but what i also believe is that the committee should be doing as much of a comprehensive investigation that goes back to both administrations to get to the bottom of this, to get to the truth which is the common goal we share, number two, we should do this in a way that establishes the absolute foundation of credibility before we ask this congress to take an action that will be for the first time in the history of this countr

mr. cummings has a different understanding. >> will the gentleman yield? >> i have gotten this from the attorney general's office and noticed that all he is referring to is trying to have a good- faith effort to try to resolve the subpoena and contempt issue only. >> that would seem fair to me, but with respect to the chairman for standing up for committee progress, i agree with the chairman that we do owe it to get to the bottom of this. this other point is the challenge we always have in congress. everything we do, when it ends up in a partisan vote, in the public with a view that this is a political deal going down in washington once again. the hope i would have, as a member of the committee, is that we strongly believe in the legitimate access congress should have in order to make its determination about accountability and how it happened. if you lay that foundation in this committee that would justify, in the minds of most of us, including on both sides of the aisle, about major power being appropriate at this time, the two questions being asked sugge

mr. cummings on the subject. i know that this case is very different from what we had before a few years ago. >> to see -- do you see any problem solving the student laws retroactively? >> yes. >> the interest rate will only apply to new amounts, not to current rates that suppose you are a student >> suppose you are a student and your ticket out alone and you sign up for 6.8%. you have signed up. sometime down the road you're going to perhaps renegotiate the loan? that is an affirmative action and you have to know how to do that. there are costs involved that would probably be passed on to the bar were. -- to the borrower. people have been to make decisions based on a certainty. how the pit -- how about the uncertainty that this may not be the interest biped. i pay. you don't even know it would be retroactive so why would we do that except to humor the intransigence of the republicans in the house of representatives. why should students have to take that on certainty if we agree that the interest rate should be 3

mr. cummings said it it well perhaps they are lying to their bosses we'll not brimming them in unless we have the questions to ask. i expect to have a panel. >> chris: you refused to have kenneth nelson. >> not at all. >> he testified two days -- ? in a private hearing. >> no, a private gathering with republicans and demicrats. our intention to have him on a panel. >> chris: we have limited time. congressman cummings does that satisfy you? >> no, i have asked the chairman to blidge atf director nelson before us. he has refused to. and we ask add for the witnesses to california before a public hear he refused to do that. the all i am saying the chairman and me has a willing partner if we are about the business of keeping the promise to the terry family. i want to do that. that is so very, very important. but i can tell you, i said it before, chris. i think regarding to getting the documents we are on the one foot line of the field. i have no doubt that if speaker boehner showed the strong leadership, we can sit it down and work it out with the attorney general and move on >> chris: we hav

mr. cummings has not lived up to his promise. i wish he had, to the terry family. i believe in spirit he thinks he has, but in reality, this truth, the full truth, is too painful for, in fact, him to take on his own attorney general. i think that's one of the problems that goes on in every administration. >> i want to give you an opportunity to respond to that. >> i responded in the hearing and told him, and i'll say it today. in my 61 years in life, i have had nobody to challenge my integrity. mr. issa gets confused, when you stand up for the law and you say that, and i say that we should not be trying to subpoena documents that would be unlawful for the attorney general to give us, give to us, and when i say we should not be subpoenaing documents that reveal informants, confidential informants and documents that might interfere with the trial, he automatically thinks you're trying to defend the attorney general. i'm trying to stand up for the integrity of the house and for the integrity of the executive branch of government. i make it clear, i hold the executive

mr. cummings is no slush. but has to be tempered with restraint. and the big failings of what mr.done -- two things. number one, the subpoena he sent to the attorney general was so over-broad it was requiring him to provide information that if he would have it would have put him in jail. grand jury transcripts. that's illegal to turn over. transcripts of wiretap applications, that's against the united states code to turn it over. so it raises questions about the credibility of what's really the agenda here. is it the pursuit of truth or a political hit shot? that is what the chair has to protect. second thing is that the attorney general has actually been very responsive. he's been in to the congress eight times to testify, produce thousands of documents. so this is something that could be worked out. but sometimes you don't want to take yes for an answer. >> josh, congressman issa told rush limbaugh in 2010 that president obama was one of the most corrupt presidents in modern times. he walked it back, then came out with this zinger just two months ago. >> we're very busy in washi

mr. cummings is correct.here he's not correct is after chairman issa narrowed the scope of documents to not include anything that was legally prohibited from being discovered, he's still not complied. what could possibly be protected about the drafting of a false letter to a committee of congress? >> but back in the bush administration when cheney was talking about executive privilege because of discussions on energy policy and discussions with people from outside the white house even, republicans rallied around him and said it's legitimate. democrats, it was very much a partisan issue, just as this is now. if it was okay, though, under the bush administration, why isn't it okay now? what's the difference? >> anderson, i've never subscribed to that theory in life, which is why i may not be long for this town. i was a prosecutor back when that was going on. the notion that it's okay for me to do it because you did it has never been appealing to me. if it was wrong to do it now, it was wrong to do it then and i

mr. cummings is no slouch in the aggressive department, but if you're in oversight, it should be tempered and the big failings of what mr. iss a two things, number one, the subpoena he sent to the attorney general was so overbroad, it was requiring him to provide information that if he provided it, would have ended up, put him in jail. grand jury trance crypts, he asked for that. that's illegal to turnover. tr transcripts of wire tap information. it raises question about the credibility of what is really the agenda here, the pursuit of truth or a political hit job? and that is a credibility that the chair of the committee has to protect. second thing, is that the attorney general has actually been very responsive. he's been into the congress eight times to testify, produced thousands of documents, so this is something that could be worked out. but sometimes you don't want to take yes for an answer. >> josh, congressman issa told rush limbaugh that president obama was one of the most presidents in present times, walked it back, and then came out with this zinger. >> we're busy in washingto

mr. cummings says it very well, perhaps these people were lying to their bosses, but we're not going to bring them in unless we have the kind of questions we need to ask. i want every one of those people here. >> roughly 300 of the 2000 guns involved in the original fast and furious operation wound of missing, harris. >> james, what are the democrats preparing to resolve this swiftly? >> the truth is both branches in the the celebration of power showdown had an interest in settling it before it goes to the courts where each branch could find its powers limited. and chairman issa secretly agreed to halt the charge if assistant attorney general lan y brewer on the right of the screen, would resign. the spokesman for issa has denied that. today the top democrat called on house speaker john boehner to meet with attorney general holder. these are types of documents that, that the attorney generals over and over year after year after year, have held close to them. themselves. and the offices. but, he has done that and so, i think maybe all he's in for an a good faith promise that we would bring, at

mr. cummings has not lived up to his promise. i wish he has to the terry family.inks he has but in reality the truth is too painful for him to take on his own attorney general and i think that's one of the problems that goes on in every administration. >> in my 61 years of life, no one, no one has ever questioned by integrity. you just did. and i resent what you said. >> and tonight a growing list of house democrats saying they will break ranks of the parties. he they say they will vote yes to holding the attorney general in contempt. johnathan strong from roll call joins us. nice to see you, johnathan. >> good evening. >> a head count. any idea how many democrats will vote with the republicans tomorrow? >> congressman adams shifted. he's a democrat and he would seem to know about that. we heard other counts a little lower than that. but the comparison is 2007 when republicans lost three votes. democrats were holding two white house aids in contempt and three republicans switched sides. i think this is a very significant repudiation, depending on how large the num