mr. dellinger: well -- justice breyer: now, what do you -- that's -- mr. dellinger: if -- justice breyer: that's the state of the argument that you're walking into, i think. mr. dellinger: if we go to congress, congress made it quite clear how this case should be resolved, because congress expressly did not apply the religious exemptions of the ada to retaliation. justice breyer: no. i don't agree with that. i think -- i think what it says is a religious organization may require that all applicants and employees conform to the religious tenets. it put that in the section defining defenses. the defenses are part of the right, and when it forbids retaliation, it says retaliation against an individual for the exercise of any right granted. and, therefore, i don't believe that a person who has failed to violate the substantive section could be held up normally. i mean, i don't -- mr. dellinger: well, we differ on that, but -- justice breyer: i can think it's pretty easy to read that exception, even though it's in a different subchapter, into the retaliation exc

mr. dellinger? >> yes. >> could you assume -- sorry.[laughter] >> could you assume for me that is it -- >> justice kagan. [laughter] >> i feel like i've missed something. [laughter] mr. dellinger, could you assume for me that there is a ministerial exception that's founded in the religion clauses and tell me who count as a minister and why this commissioned minister does not count as a minister. >> i believe that there is a exemption grounded in the religion clauses. it means that religious organizations will win, prevail in many cases in which a comparable civil organization would not prevail. i don't think that it makes sense to approach it in a categorical way of asking -- >> i'm just asking you to assume with me for a moment that there is a categorical exception and to tell me who you think counts as a minister and why the woman in this case does not. >> well, in our view if that was the test, then we would say that the court of appeals was correct in holding that she was not a minister, and the principle reason is she carries out s