it's not, you know, but it's fascinating. >> mr. dorr was very careful about keeping his cards close to his chest. >> yes. but listening to the tapes had an effect on him, didn't it? >> yes. yes, it confirmed -- we all believed that the president really acted improperly. there really was a misuse. it was wrong to break into the headquarters of your political opponents. it's wrong to wire tap. it's wrong to break into the headquarters of the psychiatrist. it's wrong, you know, and then to misuse the fbi, patrick gray, and misuse the cia, this is, you know, we all felt that. you know? and when you heard the tapes, it sort of put it all together for us and it did have an impact on dorr. whether we could, i mean, maybe dorr would have -- only he can speak for himself -- have reached the conclusion we should have asked for itch peoplement, if without tapes i don't know what conclusion you would have reached. i mean, i don't know what we'd have done. >> did he give you a sense of what he was thinking or did he not share it with you? how did it

. >> did mr. dorr play any role as a consultant at the time of the clinton impeach snmt? >> not to my -- i don't know. i wasn't around in the clinton impeachment. listen to me there would be no clinton impeachment. but i wasn't around. the answer is probably not. but i don't know for sure. >> did you know that bert marshall opposed article 3? >> no. i did not know that. he did? that's interesting. >> he and owen fist had a debate about it. owen did support it. >> that was important. see, he -- i was a strong supporter of article 3. and i did know that dorr reached out to other people such as fist and marshall. he didn't rely on my judgment holily. he looked to me for advice and -- but he was looking to other people as well. so if i argued strongly as i did for article 3 i knew he would go to other -- like he should. that's the right thing. just because i say there should be article 3 doesn't mean there smub article 3. it was part of my -- even article 3, he was part -- the reason i wanted article 3 is because we had to sit down to the president's -- the executive branch i