. >> mr. garre i think that the issue my colleagues are asking is at what point and when do we stop deferring to the university's judgment that race is still necessary? that's the bottom line of this case and you're saying and i think rightly because there are cases that you can't set a quotea because that's what our cases say you can't do. so if we're not going to set a quotea, what do you think is make andard we apply to the judgment? standard you would apply is one set forth in grutter, that would look to whether or not the university reached an environment in which members of underrepresented minorities, african-americans and hispanics, do not feel like spokespersons for their race. an environment where cross racial understanding is promoted, an environment where the education benefits of diversity are realized. the reason why the university of texas concluded that that environment was not met here and laid out in several different information points that this court can review. >> that holds for