mr. greenhut. sustained. >> to the extent that you have done research on the subject of what the disparity of public and private sector pay and benefits, what would you say on average if you would, sir, what would you say is the premium paid to a public sector worker today? >> what i've seen, for instance, the unions will talk about on retirement at the average government retiree gets about $27,000 a year could they say that as evidence that these are not average as pensions. these averages include people who retired and include people who are short timers. in the private sector, the number is about 9000. soon after $27,000 number still tripled on the pension. if you look at people retiring in the last couple years. in california, the averages about $66,000. >> i think you made your point. we have to move on. any further questions? >> with the size nationally of the public or employee unfunded liabilities in the pension and health care benefits, could you provide the jury what the best estimate is

mr. greenhut.you swear on this copy of the "wall street journal" to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god? >> not on the international editorials, but on everything else, yes. [laughter] >> this is going to be a long night. i can see it now. [laughter] >> mr. greenhut, state your name and occupation. >> steven greenhut -- >> oh, sorry, sorry. the bailiff made a mistake here. >> oh, rusty's on vacation. >> i'm editor of calwatchdog and watched the train wrerk in california. i wrote an article on subtle employee unions. [laughter] >> let's talk about the fiscal crisis in california. you're an expert on that subject. to what degree would you say that public employee unions are responsible for the $20 billion hole in the sacramento budget? >> the unions say there's only a small percentage of the state budget's that's attributeable to the debt, but they hid the impact on the state budget. it's a pretty large effect, but at the local level, it's e enormous. cities spe