we've had discussion about this on several occasions, but in this case i have to say i do agree with mr. hertz and in the end we have no recourse other than to hold the director of any department ultimately responsible. i mean i think that is true that the buck stops there and to try and to decisive and unspool the thread of who rejected or didn't do a timely response i think can get a little too complicated. i think the simple thing is that a executive director of any department is responsibility, end of story, whether it's willful or non willful is the other matter that we can certainly discuss. >> the purpose of the public records statute is to get access to documents and guess the frustration i am feeling is even if we make this motion and we pass it, and we send a letter to the head of the planning department how does that get documents produced? i mean how do we -- >> can i respond? if you consult the ethics commission's guidelines in section 3c it discusses the options that the commission has in the event it finds a violation whether willful or non willful. i can read those to you if yo