mr. kaufman, i mr. kaufman, i miss where you and so you can get started on adjustment and then we will swear in the doctor when he returns. you are aware of the committee into the gaza practice taking has been under oath. any objection to testifying under oath? advisor under the rules of the house you can be advised by counsel to do you have desired to be advised by counsel to the? i do not. >> thank you. spent please raise your right hand and i will swear you in. please were the test we about to give us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? >> i do. >> you are under oath subject to the penalties. you may not get a five minute written summary, five minute summary of your written statement. go ahead. >> fantastic. thank you, chairman murphy, ranking member degette, and members of the subcommittee. thank you for the opportunity to be to testify on the sims for disease control and prevention anthrax laboratory incidents. but he began like amending the cdc, specifically the actions taken to p

mr. kaufman, anything to add? >> i continue to stand by my belief that -- and my conviction -- because over the last 10 years i have traveled several labs and i have asked scientists to please report laboratory accidents and incidents so we can learn from them. if we take this chance now and turn this into a punitive action against scientists that make intended injuries, it builds resentment, teaches no new behavior, and it hides true behavior. if we're going to make decisions to decrease risk in science we better consider how we address incidents and accidents before doing so. a punitive actions, in my opinion, are not the way to go. certainly against a scientist makes a mistake. if they go against standard operating procedure, that's a completely different job issue than a scientist doing their job within a culture and does not go outside of the s.o.p. provided to them. >> thank you. mr. chair, i yield back. >> it builds resentment? you've got to be kidding me. you are telling me these people with phd's don't un

mr. kaufman, would you also? >> absolutely. >> great. thanks mr. chairman. i don't have anything further. thank you for clarifying. >> thank you. recognizing mr. blackburn of tennessee. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i think we're on the same path here with our questions. dr. ebright, let's go back to the cdc report from the 2004 anthrax incident. >> yes. >> you mentioned that. that incident stated inactivated anthrax should be cultured both at the preparing lab and at the research lab several days before use to ensure sterility. did cdc follow their owned a vice is -- >> no they did not. in 2006. definitely not in 2014. >> what we have is a continued pattern of refusing to learn from their past mistakes? >> indeed refusing to read their own reports and follow their own recommendations. >> okay. you are the director of a bio medical research lab. >> yes. >> you do some of the same work with the dangerous pathogens. how important is it to you that all personnel in your lab strictly follow your biosafety protocols and in order to follow those biosafety protocols

mr. kaufman you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you all for stepping forward as whistleblowers. i believe the rank-and-file in the veterans administration are in fact employees that care about serving the needs of the nation's veterans and without whistleblowers such as yourself who have had a courage to step forward, we would never know the problems that exist in the veterans administration because none of those problems have ever been self identified by their leadership in the administration. they have always been aware of them simply by the whistleblowers coming forward and sharing with us the reality of what is occurring on the ground with the veterans health administration. one thing i think when we became aware of the magnitude and the crisis was concerning the patient wait times, and the fraudulent changes in terms of those records often fueled by the drive for bonuses. that's what you're saying is actually the problem was much deeper than simply patient wait times, that they were also denying people inside the system is that correct? >> they didn't get into collecting th

mr. kaufman really hits the nail right on the head in regard to this overall issue. it to you. and i am proud to introduce him to you in anticipation of the second panel. mr. chairman, thank you. i yield back. >> to the panel, you are aware the committee is holding an investigative hearing. when doing so has the practice of taking testimony under oath. do any of you have objections to taking testimony under oath? all the witnesses indicate no. the chair then advises you all that you are under the rules of the house and rules of the committee. you are entitled to be advised by counsel. do any of you wish to be advised by counsel? all the witnesses indicate no. in that case would you all please rise and raise your right hand. i'll swear you in. stand, please. do you swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truths and nothing but the truth? thank you. all the witnesses answered the affirmative. you are now under oath and subject to the penalties set forth in section 1001 of the code. you may now give a five-minute written summary of your stateme

mr. kaufman, you specialize in the area of behavior change. we have heard from you and other witnesses today this culture as a concern. congress has investigated problems with the veterans ad n administration because of the care we have for our veterans and we saw cash incentives for people. we also had in this committee the ceo of the general motors. americans were outraged and described as the culture of come play sency. now we see this getting into an area which before if you weren't a veteran or didn't buy those chevy cars you were not a risk. but when you release a pathogen it's around anybody exposed to it. does this review team familiarity around pathogens tend to lead people to cut some corners and just get complacent about this? >> i think that there's -- i believe you know this, too. i think there is an inherent risk in behavior in general. you overbehavior. offunder behave. i think it's a kind of a balance and that is in essence what professional development and training and assessments can be used for is to keep that balance in che

mr. kaufman, you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. first of all, thank you so much for the service of your sons and sergeant, in your case your own service. my heart goes out to you for your losses as a veteran myself. the question i have is, i mean, do you think, certainly sergeant in your case and then for the parents in the cases of your sons, was va overmedicating them in lieu of giving them therapy? >> thank you for that question. this is an issue we battle with on a daily basis as we provide support and service to veterans and active duty members. part of what i do through the ministry i'm in is providing support groups through the chaplain's channels. so ideal with this very closely on both sides. medication is no longer being used as a tool to subdue the symptoms while we work on the deeper issues. >> no. what does the va do? >> the va specifically utilizes medication to control it and keep them, suppress the symptoms without working on the deeper issues. >> thank you. please. >> brian was never put on any medication. only for

mr. kaufman, you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. first of all, thank you so much for the service of your sons and sergeant, in your case your own service. my heart goes out to you for your losses as a veteran myself. the question i have is, i mean, do you think, certainly sergeant in your case and then for the parents in the cases of your sons, was va overmedicating them in lieu of giving them therapy? >> thank you for that question. this is an issue we battle with on a daily basis as we provide support and service to veterans and active duty members. part of what i do through the ministry i'm in is providing support groups through the chaplain's channels. so ideal with this very closely on both sides. medication is no longer being used as a tool to subdue the symptoms while we work on the deeper issues. >> no. what does the va do? >> the va specifically utilizes medication to control it and keep them, suppress the symptoms without working on the deeper issues. >> thank you. please. >> brian was never put on any medication. only for

mr. kaufman, you are recognized for five minutes. dr. tuchschmidt, based on the testimony provided by the whistleblowers here tonight, it appears that the same unethical tactics are occurring. numerous v.a. medical centers across the country. this would seem to indicate there is a universal policy in place against whistleblowers that is well-known among all the supervisors throughout the country. do you have an explanation for this? i don't believe there is any policy or a collusion to suppress whistleblowers among the top leadership of the organization. in fact, i think the organization has said today, particularly secretary gibson, that we intend to do something about that. the message has clearly gone out to everybody in that june 13 letter that there are consequences for retaliation. we have to go through a process when those complaints come in. so that we are treating people fairly and we know both sides of the story and we have facts before we take action. but i think the organization, that the secretary speaks for the organization

mr. kaufman, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i think, first of all, thank you so much for the service of your sons and, sergeant, in your case, your own service. my heart goes out to you for your losses as a veteran myself. a question that i have is, i mean, do you think certainly, sergeant, in your case, and then for the parents in the ases of your sons that was the v.a. overmedicating them in lieu of giving them therapy? sergeant, why don't i start with you and then i'll work this way. >> sir, thank you for that question. this is really a culture that begins with d.o.d. and extends into the v.a. it is an issue that we deal with on a daily basis as we provide support and service to veterans and active duty members where i'm at in my local area. the part of what i do through the ministry that i'm in is providing support groups through the chaplain's channels, so i deal with this very closely on both sides. medication is no longer being used as a tool to subdue the symptoms while we work on the deeper issues. >> what does the v.a

mr. kaufman, you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. first of all, thank you so much for the service of your sons and sergeant, in your case your own service. my heart goes out to you for your losses as a veteran myself. the question i have is, i mean, do you think, certainly sergeant in your case and then for the parents in the cases of your sons, was va overmedicating them in lieu of giving them therapy? >> thank you for that question. this is an issue we battle with on a daily basis as we provide support and service to veterans and active dut

mr. kaufman really hits the nail right on the head in regards to the overall issue, and i will commend it to you, and i am proud to introduce him to you in anticipation of the second panel. mr. chairman, thank you very much, and i yield back. >> to the panel, you are aware that there is an investigative hearing, and they are used to taking testimony under oath. you any of you have objections under oath?stimony it indicates no. the chair advises you you are under the rules of the house and committee, and you're entitled to be advised by counsel. do any of you wish to be advised by counsel during today's testimony? all of the witnesses indicate no. in that case, please rise and raise your right hand, and i will swear you in. do you swear the testimony you are about to give is the whole truth and nothing but the truth? thank you. all of the witnesses answered in the affirmative. title 18, section 1001 of the united states code, and you may now give a five-minute written summary of your statement. dr. frieden. >> chairman murphy, ranking member degtette. chairman murphy, ranking member of the

mr. kaufman really hits the nail right on the head in regards to the overall issue, and i will commend it to you, and i am proud to introduce him to you in anticipation of the second panel. mr. chairman, thank you very much, and i yield back. >> to the panel, you are aware that there is an investigative hearing, and they are used to taking testimony under oath. you any of you have objections to adding testimony under oath? it indicates no. the chair advises you that you are under the rules of the house and committee, and you're entitled to be advised by counsel. do any of you wish to be advised by counsel during today's testimony? all of the witnesses indicate no. in that case, please rise and raise your right hand, and i will swear you in. do you swear the testimony you are about to give is the whole truth and nothing but the truth? thank you. all of the witnesses answered in the affirmative. title 18, section 1001 of the united states code, and you may now give a five-minute written summary of your statement. dr. frieden. >> chairman murphy, ranking member degette. chairman murphy, rank

mr. kaufman. >> i just want to say he hope we get everything done before the august recess. as you have in terms of putting a proposal forward, that recognizes this just isn't a function of resources, but it's about restricting an agency that has not served the needs of our veterans. >> this morning we heard from acting second gibson and from his responses to our questions, the question for the $17 billion is still a work in progress. they vchaven't figured out how many people they need. so i'm dcurious why it has come forward at this time. i don't think they are ready to make that request to be real honest. >> we had an article in the "wall street journal" yesterday that the problem was money. the problem isn't money. we've had a 16% increase with 17% increase in demand. it's not money. and if we at this, we will have failed the american taxpayer. but most importantly, we will have failed the veteran. so it is not hone. you just have to look how much the veteran budget has grown in health care and how less efficient it's become every year. and the key is management. waef if

mr. kaufman really hits the nail right on the head with regard to this overall issue and i would commend to you and i'm proud to introduce him to you in anticipation of the second bill. mr. chairman, thank you very much and i yield back. >> to the panel tenure of where the committee is holding investigative hearing it when doing so has the practice of taking testimony under oath. do and you have objections to taking testimony under oath? all witnesses indicate new. the chair advises you all that you're under the rules of the house and the rules of the committee. you're entitled to be advised by counsel. do any of you advised to be advised by counsel during today's testimony? all the witnesses indicate no. in that case would you all please rise and raise your right hand and i will swear you in. [witnesses were sworn in] thank you. all the witnesses answered in the affirmative. you may not give a five minute written summary of the written statement. dr. frieden. >> chairman murphy, ranking member degette -- [inaudible] chairman murphy, ranking member degette, members of the subcommittee, t