if officer kenny did not violate the law, then is anyone legally responsible for mr.h? does the criminal law protect individuals like mr. robinson from deadly force exercised by police officers? are police officers above the law? joining me now is the contributor to "essence" magazine, joy reid and john kelly, defense attorney. joy, what do you think about the reaction from the aclu here? what they're making an argument for is that we've got to establish a baseline of culpability for the police department. you've already indicated earlier in the show that it's very rare as we know for police officers to be charged. so what the aclu is asking for here is some kind of public evidence to substantiate a claim of innocence here, of at least of not being guilty. so how do we then take them to task and hold the police responsible? >> absolutely. and michael, gone are the days when it's simply enough for police to assert that the officer acted lawfully and there's no questions asked. in the intervening years, particularly after -- since the michael brown case we know that in