mr. kerevan, i'd be happy to supply you and mr. terry with the origins of it. but if you think about it, for second you can see that if you support agriculture in all sorts of ways through subsidies and through tariffs that there will be an extra cost. the question for us is is the c.a.p. efficient? >> 400 is misleading? because it's not what people -- >> it's the c.a.p. efficient in the way that -- >> we're trying to clarify -- you have a number. you introduced the number. you don't know where it came from. i'm trying -- is it 400 pounds savings, or do you know? >> i didn't -- look, let's be very clear. there is a cost to the -- >> you used a specific number two weeks ago. you don't know where it came from. you're saying it wouldn't be 400, it could be less than that. >> you were speaking about a saving, i was speaking about a cost. >> you said a 400 pound cost at the moment. you used the number. if we leave -- i'm asking do we save that 400 wherever it came from? >> my answer is we wouldn't save all this 400. >> how much? >> i can't give you that figure. but

mr. kerevan. i think it is very important for my side of the argument to stress that we believe in subsidizing agriculture and supporting agriculture. that would be -- i don't think it would be reasonable to expect british agriculture to survive without direct support. what we're advocating -- >> i appreciate that then. i'm trying to clarify the number, the number. you used a specific number which got a lot of publicity and maybe right, maybe wrong. are you saying it's not 400? if we leave -- what is the savings -- >> i think the extra cost of food is a result of the c.a.p. for a long time put at about 400 pounds per family. >> by whom? >> i'm -- i would be very happy to write you with the providence of that statistic but that's certainly a statistic i have read for a long time. [ inaudible ] >> it was before making it in a speech like that. >> well, mr. kerevan, i would be very happy to supply you and mr. tyrie with the origins of it. but if you think about it, far second, you can see that if you