mr. larsen. does mr. altmire have any other additional questions? okay. mr. larsen, i thank you for joining us today to answer our question and providing your insight on the issue. we will continue to closely follow them and want to work with you and help ensure that small businesses have flexibility and choices in their health care coverage decisions. i want to suggest that mr. larsen ask a member of his staff to remain here during the testimony of the second panel and would you please identify and i believe we have already spoken, thank you. perfect. wonderful. thank you, again, mr. larsen for your time. i truly appreciate it. now i'd like for the second panel to come forward. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> wonderful, let's go ahead and get started. thank you so much for coming today to be with us for this subcommittee hearing. our first witness is douglas holtz-eakin. he's served as commissioner for the financial crisis inquiry commission from 2009 to 2011. and director of the congressional budget office from 2003 to 2005. dr. holtz-

mr. larsen said, people are talking about it. it isn't happening. thank you. >> mr. vaughn? well, i certainly would have no way of knowing. i'm a business person. let me just give you a few numbers so you understand my situation. if you take 2010 and my small business, i'm a sub-chapter s corporation, so at the end of the year, the bottom line of my company was $319,000. if i took -- the way this plan exists now, if i took this plan and i insured all of my employees the way it's designed, it would cost me 307,000, okay, which leaves me $12,000. now, understand, i'm taxed personally on the net income of my company, all right? but do i take that money? absolutely not. what i do, i have to turn that money around and reinvest in the building, buy new equipment and those sort of things. $12,000 doesn't even leave me enough to pay my taxes let alone reinvest in my business. the other piece of this is, i'm not likely to pay a penalty. why would i do that because i'm not really helping anyone. the penalty would cost me as much as the insurance i'm providing now. so my -- if this thi