mr. laycock, i am not sure why the status of individual matters under your theory. it seems to me that what you're saying is so long as a religious organization gives a religious reason of any kind, a genuine or not, for firing someone that is associated, whether a minister or not, that that invokes the exception. unlike hearing argument right? >> -- am i hearing your argument right? >> no. >> so why is there a difference -- >> it is categorically special because it is the separation of church and state. the level of sensitivity is not remotely the same. >> you would say with the janitor is that you can get into the pretext question? >> the janitor can litigate the pretext question, yes. >> you are limiting that test whether the person is a minister. define minister. >> a person who holds ecclesiastical office in the church or performs important religious jobs, including teaching of the faith. >> there is an important point with respect to how the ministerial exception release date in order to make an argument for the minister ial exception, at you have to say that