mr. lindstrom has some rebuttal? >> just a few quick points, you know. our society has a mechanism for change. that's the amendment process, substantive due process. it's not a mechanism for change. that's a mechanism for preserving things that are deeply rooted in history. there's an amendment process that's available at the federal and state level and that's the state -- for example, the state level, there were six things on the ballot in 2012 through the initiative process. it's quite common in michigan. there were six different measures. and that goes to the point that it is the state that has conferred the dignity that was discussed in windsor. windsor repeatedly in discussing the dignity talked about it being the dignity conferred about the state and goes back to the point about democracy. they confer that dignity by voting for it. the right process is not through the courts but through the people. for example, in maine, maine went one way in 2009 legislation pased a law recognizing same-sex marriage. people reversed course. so democracy -- >> can

mr. lindstrom has some rebuttal? >> just a few quick points, you know. our society has a mechanism for change. that's the amendment process, substantive due process. it's not a mechanism for change. that's a mechanism for preserving things that are deeply rooted in history. there's an amendment process that's available at the federal and state level and that's the state -- for example, the state level, there were six things on the ballot in 2012 through the initiative process. it's quite common in michigan. there were six different measures. and that goes to the point that it is the state that has conferred the dignity that was discussed in windsor. windsor repeatedly in discussing the dignity talked about it being the dignity conferred about the state and goes back to the point about democracy. they confer that dignity by voting for it. the right process is not through the courts but through the people. for example, in maine, maine went one way in 2009 legislation pased a law recognizing same-sex marriage. people reversed course. so democracy -- >> can

mr. lindstrom, you have some rebuttal? >> just a few quick points, your honor. our society has a mechanism for change. that's the amendment process. substantive due process is not a mechanism for change. that's a mechanism for preserving things that are deeply rooted in history. there's an amendment process that's available at the federal and state level and that's the state -- for example, the state level, there were six things on the ballot in 2012 through the initiative process. it's quite common in michigan. there were six different measures. and that goes to the point that it is the state that has conferred the dignity that was discussed in windsor. windsor repeatedly, in discussing the dignity, talked about it being the dignity conferred about the state and goes back to the point about democracy. the people confer that dignity by voting for it. the right process is not through the courts but through the people. for example, in maine, maine went one way in 2009 where the legislation passed a law recognizing same-sex marriage. people reversed course. so demo

mr. lindstrom, that it's disparaging the votes of citizens of michigan, is that -- i should think that's -- >> i definitely think that it weigh into the consideration very heavily. that to say that, for example, this is under rational basis review to say that michigan voters didn't have among them out of all 2.7 million a single rational basis means it's not possible to have a person of good will to disagree. >> talking to a panel with two people from ohio. we might be able to accept that argument. >> well, fair enough, so i think the numbers are in ohio may be -- >> your red light is on. >> the dates of the last time the people in michigan voted was something like ten years ago. >> it was 2004. that's correct, your honor and that's the reason that the people could change their mind in the future. not a reason to stay it's unconstitutional. >> okay, your full rebuttal time. thank you. >> may it please the court, carole stanyar for the april deboer family. for 50 years the supreme court has recognized that the freedom of personal choice in matters of marriage and family life are liberties

mr. lindstrom. we appreciate both of your sets of briefs and your oral arguments today. thank you. and the clerk may call the next case. >>> now another court case on gay marriage. this one from ohio. a three-judge panel on the sixth circuit court of appeals heard oral argument in august on whether ohio has to recognize gay marriages from other states. >>> good afternoon. >> good afternoon. may it please the court, eric murphy for the interment intersect tor of department of health. these two ohio case kas involve state recognition of is out of state same-sex marriage and in that respect they're distinct from the michigan case that was just argued which involved in-state licensing performance of same-sex marriages. but the fundamental question in all of these cases is the same and that fundamental question is not whether ohio should recognize same-sex marriage but who should make that important decision of public policy on behalf of the state. in rejecting the ohio voters decision on this policy issue, the district court ignored its place within the judicial hierarchy and our const

mr. lindstrom, that it's disparaging the votes of citizens of michigan, is that -- i should think that's -- >> i definitely think that it plays into the consideration very heavily. to say that for example, this is under rational basis review, to say that michigan voters didn't have among them, out of all 2.7 million, a single rational basis and it's just not possible to >> there were two people from ohio, might be able to accept that argument. >> fair enough. so i think the numbers are in ohio are up. >> your red light is on. >> dates of the last time the people of michigan voted was something like ten years ago? >> it was 2004, your honor. that's why people may change their mind in the future that it's unconstitutional.