pages in, you know reading those two pages and, you know, how we related with lombardi and stuff made me want to read more about mr. shulman. >> guest: this is a fairly esoteric question, i'll try to answer it in a larger sense for the other listeners. this is a book about vince lombardi, the great football coach of the green bay packers in the 1960s. lombardi is sort of viewed mythologically as this hard line old school autoto accurate -- autocrat, and what you're talking about dan shulman was a labor organizer. in the early stages of the players starting to get power after decades of the players being basically -- not saves, but all the power rested with the owners for so long. and lombardi was right at that hinge point. and he had, actually, a very interesting and sophisticated, nuanced relationship with dan shulman. he wasn't totally in the owners' camp, and it's part of my effort to break the mythology about vince lombardi that i dealt with that. >> host: and "when pride still mattered" came out in 1999 -- [laughter] followed up with that you had a play on broadway based -- >> guest: yeah. i joked that of the