mr. mcmahon and mr. newell. you know that you are under oath.estimate absolutely. >> both of you know that. but i want to know is do you know who was involved in the decision making process to start this whole program? >> this was not a program, this was a criminal investigation. >> do you know who started toward suggested this criminal investigation? >> the agents on the street. >> someone said this is what we are going to do. who started it? where did you get the instructions to do this? >> we don't get our agents instructions to do things. they produce cases on their own. >> what you are telling me now is this investigation that we are talking about, what's the name of it again, what's it called? fast and furious. this just came from an agent in the field and that was it, nobody else had anything to do with it. you didn't get a letter of instruction or anything like that. >> what about this you say you got a memo from a deputy attorney general about this. what was that? >> i believe bill newell was referencing regarding the strategy on how we

mr. mcmahon and mr. newell, you know that you're under oath. >> absolutely, sir. >> okay. both of you know. what i want to know is, do you know who was involved in the decision-making process to start this whole program? >> again, i think this was not a program but a criminal investigation. >> well, a criminal investigation. do you know who started this criminal investigation. >> the agents on the street are the ones -- >> someone said, this is what we're going to do. who started it? where did you get the instructions to do this? >> we don't give our agents instructions to do things. they go out and produce cases on their own. >> so what you're telling me now is that this investigation that we're talking about -- what's the name of it again? fast and fewer just it came from an agent in the field. you didn't gate letter of instruction or anything like that? >> absolutely not. >> what about -- you say all together memo. there was a memo from a deputy attorney general about this. what was isn't that >> i believe bill newell a memo the deputy put out -- >> who was -- who was t

mr. mcmahon we will get to you because you are the supervisor. so at some point, based on the ig's report in doj, they said we are going to try something different here. i'm assuming because that is the way things work in government and maybe i'm wrong, if someone says we need to have this operation and we are going to make a determination that for for the first-time atf is going to conduct business this way. we are going to let these guns walk. they maybe didn't say it but in essence that is really what happened. it is a different way of conducting business with atf. where would that plan have come from? i know you sat down with this group mr. noel, but somebody higher up than you made a determination that for the first time atf is going to run this. we have heard from this panel and we have heard from the panel prior today that this is a complete aberration to the way atf has done things. where would that have come from? >> well maam, importing the strategy together for this case the strategy came from several places. the department adjusted or

mr. mcmahon, after the march 2012 briefing, mr.oover directed the phoenix field officer to prepare an exit strategy to shut down the operation within 90 days; is that correct? >> that's correct we asked for an exit strategy. >> and in his interview mr. hoover told the committee this was the first time in his career that he had ever asked for an exit strategy but that he felt that he needed one because he was very concerned about the large number of guns being purchased by the suspects. mr. spiegel, did you share mr. hoover's concern about the large number of weapons in this case? with others? spearman absolutely. i think we were all concerned about the large numbers in the magnitude of the case was something we had never encountered before in my career. >> did you ask mr. newell to provide you with an exit strategy? >> i did, sir. >> when did the exit strategy envision indictment arising? >> we received the it's a strategy in the end of march. >> what your? >> 2010. >> i'm sorry. >> and we had a 30, 6790 a plan of certain things we

mr. mcmahon, after the march 2012 briefing, mr.r directed the phoenix field officer to prepare an exit strategy to shut down the operation within 90 days; is that correct? >> that's correct we asked for an exit strategy. >> and in his interview mr. hoover told the committee this was the first time in his career that he had ever asked for an exit strategy but that he felt that he needed one because he was very concerned about the large number of guns being purchased by the suspects. mr. spiegel, did you share mr. hoover's concern about the large number of weapons in this case? with others? spearman absolutely. i think we were all concerned about the large numbers in the magnitude of the case was something we had never encountered before in my career. >> did you ask mr. newell to provide you with an exit strategy? >> i did, sir. >> when did the exit strategy envision indictment arising? >> we received the it's a strategy in the end of march. >> what your? >> 2010. >> i'm sorry. >> and we had a 30, 6790 a plan of certain things were a

mr. mcmahon just said, these mexican drug cartel are going to get their firearms. they are going to get him. so we have to do everything we can in terms of taking out the infrastructure that manipulate the strong purchaser's. strong purchaser are the lowest rung in the latter. there like a street corner drug dealer. if you just focus your investigation on strong purchaser you will not have a lasting effect. but you and your question i acknowledge yes, in fact, it should've been more frequent risk assessment. i acknowledge that. >> thank you. >> we go to other question. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i think the panel for being here today. regretfully i have to attend a teleconference, but i would like to yield my time back to the chair. it's important we continue this discussion. >> i thank the gentleman for yielding to i would like to follow up somewhat along the lines the ranking member was on. 700 weapons bought, our best guess now. for both special agents, was there a time in which either one of you were aware that, buying weapons, a total of 730 from this particu