mr. meyer soften same question. -- meyerson? >> id add to mr. culbertson's comment, his response that the key board was ten years -- keyword was ten years of investment by the russian government to develop a replacement for the nk-33 that's the key point. ten years, and we don't know how much money was invested. the we-4 is being developed, it's fully funded. so this engine is real there's real hardware to see. it's not a paper engine, so -- >> great. tell me mr. bruno has stated that both the be-4 and the ar-1 would work on the atlas v with modifications. one with more modifications than the other. can you describe the extent to which we'd have to modify the atlas v for your engine to work? >> i think that's a better question for mr. bruno. but the engine, when you're developing a new engeneral you start with requirements -- engine, you start with requirements, and the details really matter. because the be-4 is so far along in its development those details are much more well understood so that mr. bruno's team at ula can meet the right system t

mr. meyerson and ms. van kleeck. start with mr. meyerson.ith the cost of your engine the comparable to what is currently paid for the rd-180? >> according to our customer ula we understand it is. it is comparable or better than the rd-180? >> yes, sir. we've got to design g20 be apropos the price point of the rd-180. >> i want to stay with you ms. van kleeck for me. esther bruno made reference to the fact that you were 16 months behind blue origin and development of your engine. can you address that observation? what did he mean by that? >> well, i don't have my competitors schedule so i can't say for certain what the 16 months comes from. mike enzi is we will be certified by 2019, we're very confident about that. we spent 20 is developing this technology from the russians, that was pioneered by the russians. we have the factories, the schedule. we will be testing full-scale engine at the beginning of 2017. we will provide a full engine to ula in 2010 and complete certification in 2019 spent 2018 or 2019? >> we will complete certification of

mr. rob meyerson, president of blue origin. ms. lie van kleeck, vice president of space programs at aerojet. from frank culbertson, and mr. jeff thornburg senior director of propulsion engineering at spacex. thank all of you for participating in this hearing and providing your perspective on national security. i know it takes time and energy to prepare for these things and it's a real inconvenience to come up here, but it really helps us a lot in developing public policy, so i really appreciate your service. this is our second hearing. we've recently conducted on space. we are dedicating the time to this topic because of it's significant -- significance to our national security. without an effective space launch program we lose all the advantages we gain from space capabilities. losing space for our war fighters is not an option. there are key policy and acquisition questions regarding the future of national security space that need to be addressed. as we've said before, i'm committed to ending our reliance on russian rocket engines

mr. meyerson's testimony is recorded lots of folks have lots of places including someone would marvel in experience. that is interesting. makes me think regarding the rd 180 is not the russian who actually knew how that work. where is that person and maybe the chinese did that with the integrated that into their long march or maybe the blueprints. you kind of wonder -- you hope the team of scientists can do great things and in many cases they have. some cases there are these individuals who come up with the secret sauce and that leads us to the very interesting feature of space that or they do not rely the patent system to protect their ip preferring instead the trade secret system which is basically nothing there knows that the entire western system of protect intellectual property. i am not defending the patent office but this is kind of an interesting challenge here. just keep it locked up in a safe like the coca-cola formula as opposed to publishing and disseminating and protect them legally. there are many challenges we face as we get into this issue to make sure we have assured acc